Author
Topic: Rivalry Talk
(Read 17741 times)

Gigem · « **Reply #112 on:** August 20, 2021, 10:03:00 AM »

Quote from: utee94 on August 20, 2021, 09:44:00 AM

Strong fielded the worst defenses in Texas history. That's really all that needs to be said about him. It was embarrassing how poorly coached and unprepared his teams looked. That his teams were consistently destroyed while having incredible talents like D'Onta Foreman, is just inexplicable and inexcusable. He was in way over his head and no amount of on-the-job training was ever going to improve. I normally think you have to give a coach at least 4 years, but honestly he probably should have been let go after 2. We'd seen everything we needed to see at that point.

I certainly agree that Steve Patterson made a terrible impact to the program, there's no denying that.

Completely agree.

I have a loosely held belief that a coach at a top 25 program is probably all he’s ever going to be in 3 years. Now that’s not to say that if they don’t win the CFP in 3 years they never will. I’m more referring to being a top 5 program competing for a MNC or a 10-25 type program sitting at that 8-9 win range, or a 5-7 win kind of guy who makes the same mistakes year after year. Like Fran or Strong.

This belief changes somewhat the further down the program ladder you go because there are some programs that are in such a deep hole not even the best coaches could raise their profile that fast and some of these have a natural ceiling. Texas Tech, oSu, etc.

But for the helmet schools and the near helmets there is plenty of evidence to back up my 3 year rule. Bob Stoops at OU. Saban at Bama. Strong at UT. Zoom at UF. Fisher at FSU.

The outlier I can think of is possibly Mack Brown at Texas because it took him 7 years to win a conference championship and MNC but I’m fairly certain he was finishing in the top ten and possibly the top 5 during that span.

longhorn320 · « **Reply #113 on:** August 20, 2021, 10:59:12 AM »

It took Darrell Royal 5 years to field a championship team

so ya just never know

Mr Tulip · « **Reply #114 on:** August 20, 2021, 11:07:33 AM »

Texas lost to KU. That's an indefensible fact right there.

I'm arguing that laying all the blame right at Charlie Strong is to ignore some issues that were out of his control. However, this is a results based business, and the results were unacceptable. Herman being available and a Texas kid forced the issue.

Mack's Texas teams sort of fell into the "Georgia" problem. Anywhere else, and the talent of Mack's earlier teams would be winning hardware. He just fell in the same division as OU who routinely did just a little better. As a result, Texas constantly came in 2nd.

Like I said, results based business.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #115 on:** August 20, 2021, 11:15:49 AM »

The Georgia problem? Who else is in UGA's division that you can say "if they weren't stuck with them, they'd have a lot more to show for their seasons?" The only acceptable answer is Florida, and Florida hasn't been Florida in a long time. They certainly don't have the raw materials that UGA does at this point. There's not a great answer for UGA, other than maybe Smart is what he is. Time will tell, but it already has to some extent.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #116 on:** August 20, 2021, 12:57:07 PM »

The Georgia problem is recruiting numbers at the very elite level and on field performance that has been just short, or more than just short, often as not. Fromm had a very good freshman year and seemed to regress, though part of that was loss of weapons and OL. Then they lose to Bama when it counts, several times.

They are fortunate to have what in effect is a one game conference schedule.

MikeDeTiger · « **Reply #117 on:** August 20, 2021, 01:27:48 PM »

I think not watching much football and having nobody to talk about it with skewed my perception. Starting in Smart's second year, I see the Bulldogs won their division 3 years in a row, and only stopped last year, in a year that was literally a throwaway season (just don't tell rtf4 that).

I'm revising my previous sentiment on Smart. After his first year he won 13, 11, and 12 games consecutively, and then still won 8 of 10 games in a shortened season last year where everything was upside down, though without winning the division. That's not a coach I'd be inclined to part ways with anytime soon, or even criticize much.

I am ashamed I had to look up who UGA played in the 2019 SECCG. I really gotta start paying more attention.

Anyway, it looks like the occasional meeting with Alabama and LSU is UGA's only impediment. Struggling with Alabama is not a black mark, everybody does right now. UGA just has the misfortune of running into LSU when LSU is having good years, and when LSU is good it's not a strike to lose to them either. A Tigers team without Burrow doesn't beat UGA, it's bad luck that his two years coincide with the Bulldogs playing them, not a failing of Kirby.

utee94 · « **Reply #118 on:** August 20, 2021, 01:54:49 PM »

Quote from: MikeDeTiger on August 20, 2021, 01:27:48 PM

I think not watching much football and having nobody to talk about it with skewed my perception. Starting in Smart's second year, I see the Bulldogs won their division 3 years in a row, and only stopped last year, in a year that was literally a throwaway season (just don't tell rtf4 that).

I'm revising my previous sentiment on Smart. After his first year he won 13, 11, and 12 games consecutively, and then still won 8 of 10 games in a shortened season last year where everything was upside down, though without winning the division. That's not a coach I'd be inclined to part ways with anytime soon, or even criticize much.

I am ashamed I had to look up who UGA played in the 2019 SECCG. I really gotta start paying more attention.

Anyway, it looks like the occasional meeting with Alabama and LSU is UGA's only impediment. Struggling with Alabama is not a black mark, everybody does right now. UGA just has the misfortune of running into LSU when LSU is having good years, and when LSU is good it's not a strike to lose to them either. A Tigers team without Burrow doesn't beat UGA, it's bad luck that his two years coincide with the Bulldogs playing them, not a failing of Kirby.

^^^^^

All of which, I think is basically droog's point. Texas had many excellent seasons under Mack Brown between 1998 and 2009. Good enough to win a lot of other conferences. Just not quite as good as OU over the same time period.

People like to poopoo the B12 now, but from 1996 to 2009, it was a very good conference, and from 2000-2009, the B12 South was arguably the best division in all of college football.

Cincydawg · « **Reply #119 on:** August 20, 2021, 02:13:06 PM »

UGA has "almost" beat Bama several times of late, which works with hand grenades and nuclear weapons.

Burrow was on a different level of play that year.

Gigem · « **Reply #120 on:** August 20, 2021, 02:46:52 PM »

There is one thing about Mack Brown’s tenure at Texas that sorta disputes the fallacy that it was just unlucky to be in a division with OU and Bob Stoops.

Several times Texas slipped by OU, either on the field or by luck like in 2001 when Les Miles and oSu beat OU. UT went to the ccg in 2001, lost to CU in a rematch. Beat OU h2h in 2006, lost to a very mediocre A&M team in Austin. Bear OU in 08, lost to Tex Tech and leach and resulted in the infamous 3 way tie. There may be another season or two in there where Mack should have went to or won the ccg but didn’t and he lost to a much lesser opponent in doing so.

Gigem · « **Reply #121 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:22:42 PM »

Quote from: longhorn320 on August 20, 2021, 10:59:12 AM

It took Darrell Royal 5 years to field a championship team

so ya just never know

9-2 in year 3, SWC co-champs.

utee94 · « **Reply #122 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:26:24 PM »

Quote from: Gigem on August 20, 2021, 02:46:52 PM

There is one thing about Mack Brown’s tenure at Texas that sorta disputes the fallacy that it was just unlucky to be in a division with OU and Bob Stoops.

Several times Texas slipped by OU, either on the field or by luck like in 2001 when Les Miles and oSu beat OU. UT went to the ccg in 2001, lost to CU in a rematch. Beat OU h2h in 2006, lost to a very mediocre A&M team in Austin. Bear OU in 08, lost to Tex Tech and leach and resulted in the infamous 3 way tie. There may be another season or two in there where Mack should have went to or won the ccg but didn’t and he lost to a much lesser opponent in doing so.

Ha! I love how even when a Longhorn is making a point about always losing to OU, an Aggie has to come along and still try to take us t-sips down another peg or two. Just such a classically aggie thing to do.

Don't ever change, ags!

This joining the SEC and getting to play the ags again thing, is gon' be FUN!

FearlessF · « **Reply #123 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:31:01 PM »

don't forget the CCG in San San antone in 1999

FearlessF · « **Reply #124 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:32:23 PM »

Quote from: longhorn320 on August 20, 2021, 10:59:12 AM

It took Darrell Royal 5 years to field a championship team

so ya just never know

that was a different time, different world

Osborne hung on for a decade while only upsetting the Sooners once in 78

Gigem · « **Reply #125 on:** August 20, 2021, 03:33:14 PM »

Quote from: utee94 on August 20, 2021, 03:26:24 PM

Ha! I love how even when a Longhorn is making a point about always losing to OU, an Aggie has to come along and still try to take us t-sips down another peg or two. Just such a classically aggie thing to do.

Don't ever change, ags!

This joining the SEC and getting to play the ags again thing, is gon' be FUN!

Well don’t get me wrong, it was a helluva run, and I would trade places with those records and near misses in a heart beat. And Brown did bag a BCS championship in 2005 thanks to VY and co and then had the opportunity to play for another, so for 95% of the programs out there you can’t ask for more than that.

But still, to blame Stoops for not bringing home a little more hardware is a bit of a fallacy, because Mack should have won at least 3 more by my count.

The B12 (XII) Forum, home of the 'Front Porch, y'all' at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.

Topic: Rivalry Talk

Gigem

Re: Rivalry Talk

longhorn320

Re: Rivalry Talk

Mr Tulip

Re: Rivalry Talk

MikeDeTiger

Re: Rivalry Talk

Cincydawg

Re: Rivalry Talk

MikeDeTiger

Re: Rivalry Talk

utee94

Re: Rivalry Talk

Cincydawg

Re: Rivalry Talk

Gigem

Re: Rivalry Talk

Gigem

Re: Rivalry Talk

utee94

Re: Rivalry Talk

FearlessF

Re: Rivalry Talk

FearlessF

Re: Rivalry Talk

Gigem

Re: Rivalry Talk