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Topic: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #42 on: May 26, 2022, 11:59:25 AM »
Uh....i said twice every 4 years.....as in every other year.  
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Compare that to the 14-team SEC's current scheduling brilliance of non-divisional/non-"rival" teams playing once every 6 years and you have a major improvement.  
But please, complain more.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2022, 12:04:19 PM »
my point is that conferences are too big

you should play everyone in your conference every season

if a 16 team conference has two divisions, just play everyone in your division every season

it's really just two conferences joined by a championship game and a TV contract
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2022, 12:13:08 PM »
Okay, but until you build a time machine, we are when we are.  Playing 3 of your most meaningful rivals (hopefully) every year plus playing everyone else every other year is an incredible reality which is light years better than what is happening now.
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How it's set up now is lazy and stupid.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2022, 01:13:53 PM »
well, jump into your time machine and go to the future where we have pods or whatever

you may find the NCAA has been redone or killed off

you may find only 64 div I teams playing each other in football

you may find that Northwestern has given up football

you may find that Kirk Ferentz is still coaching and hasn't used the portal yet
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847badgerfan

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2022, 01:28:37 PM »
Kirk getting a 50 year extension with a billion dollar buyout?
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FearlessF

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2022, 02:17:03 PM »
telling my hawkeye friends that Kirk is too stubborn to use the portal or to pay players

could accelerate his demise 

yes, he can still get the 2 & 3 stars and develop them and put a solid team on the field, but it could cause the hawks to drop a spot or two in the west

cause once the 3 star gets developed and is playing at a high level ---- he can go for the $$$
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #48 on: May 26, 2022, 02:28:23 PM »
In pods, you still play every team twice every 4 years. And it's a 9 game league schedule.
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Example:
Teams as letters:
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
Let's pretend we're Team A.  We obviously don't play ourselves
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
We obviously play the other teams in our pod every season.
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D

Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
Now you add in 2 teams from the other 3 pods, say for 2022.
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D

Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
So in 2022, we play B, C, D, E, F, I, J, M, N.............that's 9 conference games.  4 or 5 are road games, obviously.  So let's include that:
B, @C, D, @E, F, @I, J, @M, N.  Great.  That's 2022.
.
2023:
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
So in 2023, we have the same pod foes B, C, D plus the "other' teams we didn't play in 2022:  G, H, K, L, O, P.
Let's add in the home/road aspect:
@B, C, @D, G, @H, K, @L, O, @P......9 conf games.
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Now, in 2024, our schedule is the same as 2022, but the home/road is switched for the opponents outside of our pod:
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
2024:  B, @C, D, E, @F, I, @J, M, @N......Same with 2025 being the same as 2023, just the home/road switched.  I dont think I need to type it all out.
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So you actually see all 15 other teams every 2 years!  And you see them home AND away every 4 years.
It's really quite good. 
I don't really have any objection to this but I don't think this is the way it will ultimately be done.  

At this point our conferences are basically TV Networks masquerading as Associations of Universities and those networks want high-end content.  Within the B1G the high end content is games among helmets (tOSU, M, PSU, probably UNL) followed by games between helmets and near-helmets (IA, MSU, UW etc) followed by games between near-helmets.  

Consequently, I think the structure (assuming nine games) will be that you play six teams every year (the three in your "pod" and one from each of the other three pods) then you fill out your schedule with the other three teams from one of the other three pods on a rotating basis.  

It is easiest to think of this as a grid like this:

So Michigan would play:
  • tOSU, UNL, PSU, MSU, PU, and NU every year
  • Rotate between RU/IU/IL, IA/UW/MN, and UMD/UNC/UVA
Michigan State would play:
  • RU, IA, UMD, M, PU, and NU every year
  • Rotate between tOSU/IU/IL, UNL/UW/MN, and PSU/UNC/UVA
Ohio State would play:
  • M, UNL, PSU, RU, IU, and IL every year
  • Rotate between MSU/PU/NU, IA/UW/MN, and UMD/UNC/UVA
Etc.  

I've fine tuned this over a LONG time and it accomplishes what I think the leagues will want:
  • A lot of high-end content for the TV Contract:  tOSU/M, tOSU/PSU, tOSU/UNL, M/UNL, M/PSU, UNL/PSU are played every year.  
  • Every team plays one of the four helmets every year and also plays one of the other three every year.  This is important for the smaller school AD's because they sell the most tickets when tOSU/M/PSU/UNL comes to town.  If you are say Northwestern's AD you KNOW that you are going to get a visit from one of those four EVERY year.  You'll also get your in-state rival at home every other year along with PU which is close enough to send a lot of fans and MSU which isn't too far either.  
  • Geography is a consideration for most of the every year games.  Every "pod" except the S is geographically concise.  Also, a lot of the row-mates are close to each other (tOSU/M, PU/IU, NU/IL).  

This also accomplishes some goals that the league probably doesn't care much about but that we as fans do:
  • With six teams that you play every year it will feel like a conference.  Those six will "feel like" your league.  
  • The top row teams are the winningest teams in the league so having them all play each other every year should balance schedules somewhat.  

Even without divisions you could still use the same format because it creates rotating quasi-divisions and eliminates the possibility of more than two undefeated teams.  Ie, if the N and S "pods" are playing each other and tOSU goes undefeated then it is mathematically impossible for any other row-1, N Pod, or S Pod team to go undefeated (because tOSU would have to beat them to go undefeated).  Thus the only potential undefeated teams would be the other three teams in the E and W pods (IA, UMD, UW, UNC, MN, UVA).  Only one of them could possibly go undefeated because they all play each other.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #49 on: May 26, 2022, 02:56:21 PM »
Note for the above:
With the elimination of the need for divisions you could do this basically without telling anyone you were doing it.  I think a lot of people object to the term "pods" and it just seems confusing if you are temporarily combining pods to form divisions so the elimination of divisions altogether simplifies things because you don't have to deal with that anymore.  You have "quasi-divisions" which rotate:

  • NS and EW one year
  • NE and SW one year
  • NW and SE one year
That said, the "divisions" only exist as a scheduling crutch to make sure that only two teams can go undefeated.  Once the schedule is made there are no divisions there are just 16 teams and the best two will go to the CG.  Whether or not those teams are from the same temporary "quasi-division" is irrelevant.  All that matters is record.  

One final thought:
If it were up to me I'd have some really strange tie-breakers in certain situations.  

You don't really need a tiebreaker for a two-team tie for #1 because it doesn't matter, both teams are going to the CG.  I guess you'd need some method to determine which team wears home jerseys but I could care less what that is.  

If you had a tie among three or more teams for #1 my tiebreakers would be:
  • H2H2H - with the notation that 2-0 IS better than 1-0 and 1-0 IS better than 0-0 and 0-0 IS better than 0-1#.  
  • Scoring differential in games among the tied teams*.  
  • CFP Ranking
If you had a tie among two or more teams for #2 my tiebreakers would be:
  • Record against the #1 team - with the notation that 0-0 IS better than 0-1^.  
  • H2H.  
  • CFP Ranking.  

# For example, suppose that last year Iowa hadn't played either tOSU or M but tied them at 8-1.  In that case the tiebreaker would be:
  • 1-0 Michigan
  • 0-0 Iowa
  • 0-1 Ohio State
So the CG would be Michigan and Iowa.  

* I like using scoring differential among the tied teams here because I think it most accurately determines the best team.  The example I always think of is the BIG12-S three-way tie between Texas, Oklahoma, and TxTech back in 2008:
  • Oklahoma beat TxTech by 44 (65-21) and lost to Texas by 10 (45-35) for a scoring differential of +34
  • Texas beat Oklahoma by 10 (45-35) and lost to TxTech by 6 (39-33) for a scoring differential of +4
  • Texas Tech beat Texas by 6 (39-33) and lost to Oklahoma by 44 (65-21) for a scoring differential of -38

In that scenario I'd put OU and UT in the CG and I think they were clearly the two best teams, the scoring differential demonstrates that IMHO.  

Using scoring differential generally as a tiebreaker would be a mistake IMHO because it would encourage contenders to run up the score against hapless opponents.  Thus I would NOT favor it.  This application is a limited situation in which we are only using scoring differential among the tied teams so running up the score against a bad opponent doesn't help you.  It only helps to run up the score against quality opponents.  

^ This one is unusual and would be HIGHLY controversial but I would prefer it.  My example here is the Big11Ten back in 2006.  Ohio State won the league at 8-0 while M and UW were tied for second at 7-1.  Michigan's loss was by a FG at Ohio State while Wisconsin's loss was by two TD's at Michigan.  Most tiebreaking schemes would put Michigan in over Wisconsin because Michigan beat Wisconsin H2H.  My thinking here is that Michigan already had a chance against Ohio State and lost.  Lets give Wisconsin a chance.  I'd rather see a tOSU/UW game that wasn't played that year than a rematch of tOSU/M.  

847badgerfan

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #50 on: May 26, 2022, 03:11:22 PM »
Some really great points there MB.

I'm beginning to thing you have put more effort into this than the commish (dork) has.

Send an email to King Barry. He's in charge of football now.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #51 on: May 26, 2022, 05:39:51 PM »
Note for the above:
With the elimination of the need for divisions you could do this basically without telling anyone you were doing it.  I think a lot of people object to the term "pods" 
I totally agree.
I can envision an excited southerner complaining about pods and winding up a rant with alien probes and what-not.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #52 on: May 26, 2022, 09:47:55 PM »
I totally agree.
I can envision an excited southerner complaining about pods and winding up a rant with alien probes and what-not.
I think part of it is something that us easy for us to forget. All of us here are serious fans. If the B1G and SEC went to pods with rotating divisions you and I would be familiar with that. If our teams were expected to be contenders we'd know which teams we were expected to contend with. 

You'd know that in year 1 Florida's competition for the CG was say LSU and that if Florida won they'd likely face Bama. Then the next year you'd know that UF's competition was Bama and that if they won they'd likely face LSU. 

For a more casual fan this would be ridiculously complicated. They'd never understand why tOSU was competing with Michigan to play Wisconsin one year then competing with Wisconsin to play Michigan the next.

FearlessF

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #53 on: May 26, 2022, 10:30:26 PM »
TV contracts for a group of programs don't have to ruin raditional rivalries, but they do

because............ not folks of a certain age........... because folks of a certain limited creativity

it's not a tumor!!!
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2022, 06:46:31 PM »
There is something I wanted to add on this that I think favors the idea of dropping divisions and going to a top-2 CG.  

In the B1G we presently have a pretty significant imbalance between the Divisions.  The B1G-E has won all eight B1GCG's in the B1G-E/B1G-W era.  In theory that could be solved by attempting to design balanced divisions but there are several problems:

  • I think most people favor logical and easy-to-remember geographic divisions.  Most people hated the Legends/Leaders even though it was apparently designed to create balance.  
  • Things change over time.  

That second point is the one I want to focus on here.  

After Alabama (SEC-W) won the inaugural SECCG, the SEC-E won six straight with the Gators (4) and Volunteers (2) frequently the perceived best two teams in the league.  Then there was a period of relative balance with the SEC-E (UFx3, UGAx2) and the SEC-W (Bama, LSUx2, Auburn) each winning five SECCG's between 1999 and 2008.  Then the SEC-W took over and won eight straight from 2009-2016 and 12 of 13 from 2009-2021.  

The Big12CG had a similar change in imbalance.  It is a little harder to recognize in the B12 because their CG had a slew of upsets but the higher ranked team at kickoff was:
  • 4 straight from the B12-N from 1996-1999
  • 7 straight from the B12-S from 2000-2006.  
  • 1 from the B12-N in 2007
  • 3 straight from the B12-S from 2008-2010

No matter how well designed the divisions are, this is something that is fluid and will change over time.  We've seen the stronger division in the SEC switch from SEC-E to SEC-W and the stronger division in the B12 switch from B12-N to B12-S.  Dropping divisions eliminates this problem.  The best two teams just play even if they are UNL and KSU or UT-A and OU or Bama and Auburn or UF and TN or yes, tOSU and M.  


 

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