header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games

 (Read 4723 times)

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37476
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2022, 09:41:01 PM »
those old guys aren't really that old to some of us
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18835
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2022, 12:13:57 AM »
It's less about age and more about a willful ignorance of ideas that aren't theirs........oh....uh....yeah, you're right.  It's about age.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Hawkinole

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #30 on: May 26, 2022, 12:16:28 AM »
I am not sure I like no divisions, but I can live with it. If that is what we are living with, Medina's scheduling method of three nonrotating rivals appears to me to be optimal. We need three nonrotating games because of Iowa, Wisconsin, Nebraska and Minnesota, which the group here seems to recognize, too. There is uncertainty amongst the group here about whether we need to pair Nebraska with Wisconsin. That said Minnesota, and Iowa need to be paired with each other, and with Nebraska, and Wisconsin.

As I have said before the Big Ten has become the Big 1, and Little 13. Instead of Ohio State being in the championship game 75% or more of the time, it will now be in the championship game 90% or more of the time with no divisions. Ohio State will have a great chance of being in the Top 2 when they are not in the Top 1.

Ohio State continues to shape the conference to its liking. Like it or not, Ohio State is to the Big Ten, like Texas was to the Big 12. Ultimately Texas severely damaged the Big 12. Hopefully that will not happen here.

I wouldn't mind 8 conference games, and do as we did in the 1st COVID season and schedule a 9th competitive game after the season has played out. It's a mystery game, and I thought that was cool even though Iowa and Michigan didn't get to play each other due to COVID-19. This could be accomplished by teams playing the 9th game the 1st week of December and the BTCG two weeks after the last regular season game, provided the 4-game national tournament agrees to select teams after the 2nd Saturday of December.

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18835
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #31 on: May 26, 2022, 12:20:21 AM »
Would you guys rather the B1G stay at 14 teams and do the 3+5+5 thing or go to 16 and do the 4x4 pods thing?
The only difference is instead of these 5 one year and those 5 the other year, you'd have 2 from column A, 2 from column B, and 2 from column C, then the other 2 from each column the following year.

It's a great system if you actually want to play everyone in your conference and feel like it's an actual conference.  Even with 16 teams! 
Florida used to play Auburn every year and it was always a big game, but now I couldn't tell you the last time we played or when we'll face them again.  No clue.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11232
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #32 on: May 26, 2022, 07:41:08 AM »
Why would you wan't to play Auburn instead of Vanderbilt? 

It would make it more difficult to just cruise into the playoffs without even being challenged. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37476
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #33 on: May 26, 2022, 09:44:18 AM »
Ohio State continues to shape the conference to its liking. Like it or not, Ohio State is to the Big Ten, like Texas was to the Big 12. Ultimately Texas severely damaged the Big 12. Hopefully that will not happen here.

I wouldn't mind 8 conference games, and do as we did in the 1st COVID season and schedule a 9th competitive game after the season has played out. 
Ohio St. won't cause the same damage because they share the $$$.  More importantly, the rest of the conference has been pushed around by Ohio St for decades, they're used to it.

The whole idea going to 8 conference games is an easy path to the playoff.  adding a 9th even more competitive game than luck of the draw ruins this.  Perhaps you could have the #1 team, Ohio State and the #2 team ??? play the 14 & 13th teams.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Hawkinole

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #34 on: May 26, 2022, 10:25:12 AM »
Ohio St. won't cause the same damage because they share the $$$.  More importantly, the rest of the conference has been pushed around by Ohio St for decades, they're used to it.

The whole idea going to 8 conference games is an easy path to the playoff.  adding a 9th even more competitive game than luck of the draw ruins this.  Perhaps you could have the #1 team, Ohio State and the #2 team ??? play the 14 & 13th teams.
Actually, my thought, was not expressed articulately. #s 3-14 play in the mystery game the first Saturday of December.
Everyone plays only 12-games, 9 of which are against conference opponents. The Top 2 do not play a 13th game. The Top 2's 12th game of the year is the BTCG.
Doomsayers will say that if Teams 3 and 4 play each other in the mystery game, the winner of that game arguably should have played in the BTCG, but I would say too bad, you should have played better your first 8 games.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37476
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #35 on: May 26, 2022, 10:50:04 AM »
that will work

helps bowl seeding for the winners
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #36 on: May 26, 2022, 11:18:56 AM »
Actually, my thought, was not expressed articulately. #s 3-14 play in the mystery game the first Saturday of December.
Everyone plays only 12-games, 9 of which are against conference opponents. The Top 2 do not play a 13th game. The Top 2's 12th game of the year is the BTCG.
Doomsayers will say that if Teams 3 and 4 play each other in the mystery game, the winner of that game arguably should have played in the BTCG, but I would say too bad, you should have played better your first 8 games.
I like this idea as a means of balancing schedules but only with the caveat that other than the CG, the rest of the games need to match teams that DID NOT already play.  I simply see no reason to add six extra rematches.  Using last year as an example but with no divisions, the final standings were:
  • 8-1 Michigan
  • 8-1 Ohio State
  • 7-2 Michigan State
  • 7-2 Iowa
  • 6-3 Minnesota
  • 6-3 Wisconsin
  • 6-3 Purdue
  • 4-5 Penn State
  • 4-5 Illinois
  • 3-6 Maryland
  • 2-7 Rutgers
  • 1-8 Nebraska
  • 1-8 Northwestern
  • 0-9 Indiana

So the non-divisional CG would be a rematch of The Game which sucks for Michigan.  The other six games would be:
  • Michigan State vs Iowa
  • Minnesota vs Penn State (Minnesota wins tie with UW and PU based on beating both H2H.  They play PSU because that is the best team they didn't already play).  
  • Wisconsin vs Maryland (Wisconsin wins tie with PU based on beating them H2H.  They play UMD because that is the best team they didn't already play).  
  • Purdue vs Rutgers (Purdue is the last of the 6-3 teams after the tiebreakers so they play the best remaining team they didn't already play)
  • Illinois vs Indiana (Illinois is the next best remaining team so they play the only remaining team they didn't already play)
  • Nebraska vs Northwestern (This is a rematch but it is forced by the fact that the two CG participants are from the East so there were going to be two B1G-W teams left over at the end).  

I'm not keen on rematches so I wouldn't be thrilled with the tOSU/M and UNL/NU games but other than that I like this system and there would be some big stakes in a number of these games:
  • tOSU/M would likely have been playing for a CFP spot.  If tOSU wins then Michigan's earlier win is effectively erased and the Buckeyes go.  If Michigan wins they reaffirm their earlier win and easily go to the CFP.  
  • MSU/IA would be playing for a high-end Bowl.  In the actual history Iowa went to the Citrus and played Kentucky while MSU went to the Peach and played Pitt.  
  • MN/PSU would be interesting.  Minnesota had a better record by two games but there is an argument that this was because they were in the easier division and didn't have to play PSU's tougher SoS.  Well, lets find out.  If PSU wins then it looks like MN's record was a product of an easier schedule.  If MN wins then they look like a better team.  
  • UW/UMD is really not interesting to me.  I think UW would have been favored by multiple scores.  
  • PU/RU, see UW/UMD.  
  • IL/IN would at least give IU a chance to win a game.  
  • UNL/NU can play for the title of NU.  


medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #37 on: May 26, 2022, 11:21:11 AM »
Would you guys rather the B1G stay at 14 teams and do the 3+5+5 thing or go to 16 and do the 4x4 pods thing?
The only difference is instead of these 5 one year and those 5 the other year, you'd have 2 from column A, 2 from column B, and 2 from column C, then the other 2 from each column the following year.

It's a great system if you actually want to play everyone in your conference and feel like it's an actual conference.  Even with 16 teams! 
Florida used to play Auburn every year and it was always a big game, but now I couldn't tell you the last time we played or when we'll face them again.  No clue.
In terms of scheduling either works for me.  With the 3+5+5 you get each team twice every four years which is nice and with pods you get each team twice every six years which is good enough for me.  

Thus, I really wouldn't care from a scheduling perspective.  To me it is about adding positive revenue and compelling games.  If the two additions are ISU and WVU then NO.  If the two additions are UVA and UNC then YES.  

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18835
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #38 on: May 26, 2022, 11:38:21 AM »
Why would you wan't to play Auburn instead of Vanderbilt?

It would make it more difficult to just cruise into the playoffs without even being challenged.
Fine, we'll put Ohio State in a division with Alabama, Georgia, and the 85 Bears, you insufferable twat.  Happy?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18835
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #39 on: May 26, 2022, 11:40:05 AM »
In terms of scheduling either works for me.  With the 3+5+5 you get each team twice every four years which is nice and with pods you get each team twice every six years which is good enough for me. 

Thus, I really wouldn't care from a scheduling perspective.  To me it is about adding positive revenue and compelling games.  If the two additions are ISU and WVU then NO.  If the two additions are UVA and UNC then YES. 
In pods, you still play every team twice every 4 years. And it's a 9 game league schedule.
.
Example:
Teams as letters:
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
Let's pretend we're Team A.  We obviously don't play ourselves
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
We obviously play the other teams in our pod every season.
Pod 1:  A, B, C, D

Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
Now you add in 2 teams from the other 3 pods, say for 2022.
Pod 1:  AB, C, D

Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
So in 2022, we play B, C, D, E, F, I, J, M, N.............that's 9 conference games.  4 or 5 are road games, obviously.  So let's include that:
B, @C, D, @E, F, @I, J, @M, N.  Great.  That's 2022.
.
2023:
Pod 1:  AB, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
.
So in 2023, we have the same pod foes B, C, D plus the "other' teams we didn't play in 2022:  G, H, K, L, O, P.
Let's add in the home/road aspect:
@B, C, @D, G, @H, K, @L, O, @P......9 conf games.
.
Now, in 2024, our schedule is the same as 2022, but the home/road is switched for the opponents outside of our pod:
Pod 1:  AB, C, D
Pod 2:  E, F, G, H
Pod 3:  I, J, K, L
Pod 4:  M, N. O, P
2024:  B, @C, D, E, @F, I, @J, M, @N......Same with 2025 being the same as 2023, just the home/road switched.  I dont think I need to type it all out.
.
So you actually see all 15 other teams every 2 years!  And you see them home AND away every 4 years.
It's really quite good.  
« Last Edit: May 26, 2022, 11:53:24 AM by OrangeAfroMan »
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #40 on: May 26, 2022, 11:47:40 AM »
As I have said before the Big Ten has become the Big 1, and Little 13. Instead of Ohio State being in the championship game 75% or more of the time, it will now be in the championship game 90% or more of the time with no divisions. Ohio State will have a great chance of being in the Top 2 when they are not in the Top 1.
I don't think there is much (if any) risk of that because the dynamic here is vastly different than it was in the B12.  

The problem in the B12 wasn't that Texas was better at football then everybody else, they weren't.   Actually when the conference was new the issue was that the B12-N was too strong because the best two teams were UNL and KSU.  Then later the B12-S was too strong because the best two teams were OU and UT but it was never really UT all alone.  

The issue from the very beginning was that there was simply too much dead wood in the B12 from a revenue perspective.  As originally formed the B12 was made up of:
  • Four schools from Texas
  • Two schools from Oklahoma
  • Two schools from Kansas
  • Missouri
  • Colorado
  • Nebraska
  • Iowa State


Texas has a humongous population but having four schools from there in a major conference never made sense.  They don't have four times the population of Ohio.  Moreover, Texas' football fans aren't evenly distributed over UT, aTm, TxTech, and Baylor anyway.  My impression is that Texas has the lion's share, aTm is next, and the rest have relatively small fanbases.  

Two schools each from Oklahoma and Kansas makes no sense.  The B1G has two schools each from Illinois, Indiana, and Michigan but Oklahoma's and Kansas' population is nowhere close to those states.  

Iowa State is definitively NOT the main or "flagship" school in Iowa and, like OK and KS, Iowa's population is substantially less than IL, IN, and MI.  

OkSU, KSU, ISU, and either Baylor or TxTech never brought enough fans to the table to be logical P5 teams.  The B1G has that with Northwestern and the SEC has it with the second schools in TN and MS but one or two in a league isn't a major issue.  With the B12, at least a third of their members simply didn't bring enough fans/eyeballs to the table.  The B12 didn't share revenue equally because they couldn't.  Texas brought the most fans (by a longshot) and they clearly were never going to settle for an even share of revenue in a league with the second schools in OK, KS, and IA plus the second, third, and fourth schools in TX.  

The B1G is vastly different.  Ohio State has a huge fanbase but there are other huge fanbases in the league (M, PSU, UNL) and even a lot of the league's non-helmets have decent sized fanbases.  The Buckeyes aren't nearly as imbalanced here as Texas was in the B12.  

A number of years ago the NYT did a study where they used website clicks to measure fanbase size and they came up with the following top-10:
  • tOSU
  • M
  • PSU
  • ND
  • TX
  • aTm
  • Auburn
  • Bama
  • UF
  • Clemson

They did determine that tOSU's fanbase was the biggest (I have my doubts) but that isn't my point.  The more important point is that Ohio State's fanbase is approximately equal to Michigan's (for this purpose it makes no difference which is larger, just that they are approximately the same).  Then Penn State's is not much smaller than those two.  Within the B1G per the NYT article:
  • 3.2M, tOSU
  • 2.9M, M
  • 2.6M, PSU
  • 1.4M, UW
  • 1.3M, IA
  • 1.2M, UNL
  • 1.1M, MSU
  • 1.0M, IL
  • 1.0M, MN
  • 0.9M, RU
  • 0.6M, IU
  • 0.6M, PU
  • 0.5M, NU
  • 0.5M, UMD


Ohio State doesn't and can't push the B1G around because they aren't the only game in town.  M and PSU have fanbases approximately equal to tOSU's.  UW and IA combined have about as many fans as tOSU.  UNL, MSU, and IL combined have about as many fans as tOSU.  There is very little dead weight in the B1G.  Per the NYT article Baylor, KSU, and ISU would all be nearly dead last in the B1G.  

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37476
  • Liked:
Re: Assuming we are dropping divisions and going to eight league games
« Reply #41 on: May 26, 2022, 11:48:17 AM »
gee whiz, every 4 years

talk about keeping rivalries alive

NOT
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.