~2017 NFL Thread~

[Kris61]

Ok. I want to pick this up again.  Me and Nubbz were getting pissy with each other and after the thread about Marcel passing it didn’t feel right to pick up a thread where the tone was going south.

That being said, I think this is an interesting debate and I still think Mike Adams got a lot of unwarranted heat.

Nubbz is saying he wasn’t using hindsight and using the result of the play to shape his opinion.  I think that is exactly what he and many others are doing.  His stance is that good coaches are prepared for this game situation and players should know to bat the ball down.

It was 4th and 2 for New Orleans at the Carolina 47 with under 2 minutes and Carolina trailing by 5.  A Saints 1st down basically sealed the win.  Obviously, Carolina needed the ball back and a score to win.  What is your instruction to your team in that situation?  A turnover certainly isn’t a bad result and it is something that is beat into their heads incessantly.

The only thing I might concede is telling them if there is a bomb then maybe just try to knock it down.  Anything else I want them trying to make a play for my team.  Adams intercepted the ball 16 yards downfield and was wrapped up from behind and thrown out of bounds.

Are defenders supposed to assume where they will be tackled?  Are they supposed to assume they will be tackled at all?  I don’t want my defense trying to not make a play in that situation.  If you are telling them to bat it down is it regardless of where you are on the field?  I just want to know how players are supposed to be coached in that situation.  I think Adams did what he is coached to do.  He caused a turnover.  If the WR behind slips or falls or he breaks the tackle he is in the open field running and who knows how the play turns out.    Just one of those things.

[MrNubbz]

Ok. I want to pick this up again.  Me and Nubbz were getting pissy with each other and after the thread about Marcel passing it didn’t feel right to pick up a thread where the tone was going south.

That being said, I think this is an interesting debate and I still think Mike Adams got a lot of unwarranted heat.

Nubbz is saying he wasn’t using hindsight and using the result of the play to shape his opinion.  I think that is exactly what he and many others are doing.  His stance is that good coaches are prepared for this game situation and players should know to bat the ball down.

I pointed out with each passing post that it wasn't hindsight.There are specific instances where these circumstances are touched on by the coaches.The announcers immediately brought it up and his own team mate was signaling incomplete.They obviously spotted it for the mistake that it was.It's called having your head in the game I understand it's second nature to catch the ball.After he got the ball he advanced a whole 3 yds leaving his team 17 yds deeper in the hole very late in the contest  

[Kris61]

I pointed out with each passing post that it wasn't hindsight.There are specific instances where these circumstances are touched on by the coaches.The announcers immediately brought it up and his own team mate was signaling incomplete.They obviously spotted it for the mistake that it was.It's called having your head in the game I understand it's second nature to catch the ball.After he got the ball he advanced a whole 3 yds leaving his team 17 yds deeper in the hole very late in the contest  

The announcers brought it up because of the result of the play.  That is using hindsight.  Kuechly wanted it called incomplete because of the result of the play. That is hindsight.  All they did was surmise where the ball was spotted after he was tackled as opposed to where it would have been had he knocked it down.
The only reason it was viewed as a mistake was because of where he got tackled, not because he caught it.  If he catches it and just returns it to just midfield no one is saying, “Mike Adams got away with a mistake.”  All anyone is saying is, “Big play by Mike Adams!”
That’s why I keep asking you what you would tell your team in that situation.  You keep saying he should have known to bat the ball down.  He would only know to do that if he knew what would happen after he intercepted the ball.  No one knows that. That’s why you can’t blanketly say “ just bat it down.”

[MrNubbz]

Posted by Michael David Smith on January 7, 2018, 8:12 PM EST
It’s not often that a coach is happy to see his quarterback throw an interception, but Saints coach Sean Payton felt fortunate when Panthers defensive back Mike Adams intercepted the Saints’ last pass.
Payton said after the Saints held on for a 31-26 win that his decision to go for it on fourth-and-2 with two minutes left in the game was all about trying to be aggressive. It didn’t work, but because Adams intercepted Drew Brees‘s pass rather than knocking it down, it didn’t cost the Saints as much field position as it could have.
“We went with a little hard count, called a timeout, and going to win the game,” Payton said. “I was talking to Drew about, we could punt there and play with a little longer field position, no timeouts for them, yet we felt we had a call. Tried to get Mike Thomas, they did a good job in coverage and they made a play. Fortunately it ended up being intercepted. That’s part of it.”
Panthers coach Ron Rivera also said he wished Adams had knocked it down — and that the play had been reviewed on instant replay to determine whether Adams actually had possession.
“He’s excited, he’s got a chance to make a play,” he said. “You wish he would have dropped it or batted it down, just knowing the situation and circumstances.”
Adams should have known to knock the ball down, but in the heat of the moment he grabbed the ball and held on. That cost the Panthers about 16 yards of field position, which they could have used as their final drive fell short. It was an interception that ended up helping the team that threw it.

[Kris61]

Everything you have posted back to me is people commenting on how the play turned out.  It wasn’t fortunate for the Saints it was intercepted.  Payton didn’t call that play in hopes it would be picked off.  It was fortunate it didn’t turn out as bad as it could have based on where he was tackled.

Same with Rivera.  Everything he is saying is in retrospect.  Notice he doesn’t say anything about preparing for the play.  He didn’t say “we told our guys to knock it down” or “we prepare for situations like that.”

Look, I keep asking you to put yourself in the position of the coach preparing his team for that position and you keep refusing to answer it.

Please just answer my question.  In the few occasions your team would be in that situation would your instruction be to never intercept a pass and knock everything down?  If not, what would your instruction be?  Because you keep saying he should have known, and been coached, to knock it down.

[MrNubbz]

Two pages back I exhorted "knock the ball down" is that concept just a little to complex for you.You obviously can't process simple explanations.The only thing that supersedes  your stupor on the subject is your willingness to express it.His own head coach explained he should have known the circumstance & situation.Which is exactly what I've said in at least 3 posts.Because they've gone over this in game simulations.Just ask your Librarian there to read the last 2 1/2 pages back to you.Maybe then you'll better understand.If you ask her nicely she might even explain why you should watch fencing,darts or water polo

[Kris61]

Fair enough.  I just think that’s dumb.  I don’t understand having a blanket rule not to intercept any pass in that situation for fear of what the result will be.  This time Adams was tackled 16 yards past the LOS.  Next time he may take it to the house.

I don’t want my coaches coaching scared.

[Riffraft]

Fair enough.  I just think that’s dumb.  I don’t understand having a blanket rule not to intercept any pass in that situation for fear of what the result will be.  This time Adams was tackled 16 yards past the LOS.  Next time he may take it to the house.

I don’t want my coaches coaching scared.

I think you are the only one that thinks it's dumb. 4th down, you knock the ball down because the majority of the time you will lose field position if you intercept the ball. You coach situations and percentages not some remote possibility that you might return an interception behind the original line of scrimmage. 

[ELA]

Everyone has already moved on to Steelers-Patriots next week, so I assume either Tennessee or Jacksonville (more likely) pulls the upset.

NFC sure looks like the Vikings' to lose

[Kris61]

I think you are the only one that thinks it's dumb. 4th down, you knock the ball down because the majority of the time you will lose field position if you intercept the ball. You coach situations and percentages not some remote possibility that you might return an interception behind the original line of scrimmage.

I can buy teams/coaching staffs might give players vague instructions or reminders in those situations.
“Remember guys, we don’t necessarily need an interception here”
“Just try to break up deep balls.”
Other than that, I just can’t see anyone telling their players to knock everything down on 4th down.  It’s like putting handcuffs on your defense.  In that situation you still need a score, you need a big play.  Give your defense a fighting chance to provide it.  

Anyway, I’ll drop it.

[ELA]

For all Romo gets right did he just credit Kraft for hiring Belichick "at a time nobody else would touch him?"

Wasn't the drama surrounding his hire due to the fact that the Jets had just hired him a day earlier?

[MrNubbz]

Great point I heard him say it but forgot that.Parcells was grooming BB to slide into his spot.For what ever reason BB bolted.I'm guessing he didn't want to be in Parcells sphere of influence and wanted to build something himself.BB wasn't all that in Cleveland he really wasn't.However he learned/gained/remembered from it and made him a better coach.Nick Saban was on that Browns staff also.For what ever reason the football GODs are pissed at Cleveland.Browns fans for years were at/near the top in attendance.They were maniacal- Municipal Stadium held 85,000(with SRO) more often than not it was filled.Model/Belichick/Saban all leave and win championships.We've just went 0-16,Thanks Football GODs you can ease off the accelerator now

[FearlessF]

Are defenders supposed to assume where they will be tackled?  Are they supposed to assume they will be tackled at all?  I don’t want my defense trying to not make a play in that situation.  If you are telling them to bat it down is it regardless of where you are on the field?  I just want to know how players are supposed to be coached in that situation.  I think Adams did what he is coached to do.  He caused a turnover.  If the WR behind slips or falls or he breaks the tackle he is in the open field running and who knows how the play turns out.    Just one of those things.

I'm late on this, but will add
similar to a punt returner deciding on a fair catch or a run back, yes the defender should be aware of the situation on the field during the play and can judge the probability of being tackled immediately or gaining yardage
obviously some players have more field awareness than others

[ELA]

Sounds like Patricia to the Lions is all but official.  I like the idea of bringing in a defensive guy, but I think O'Brien is the only guy from the Belichick coaching tree who hasn't been garbage