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Topic: The Ukraine Topic

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Drew4UTk

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1946 on: April 15, 2022, 10:03:27 AM »
Russia has proven itself to lack expeditionary capabilities, by my reckoning, and that is all.  Invading Russia would be an entirely different argument.  It's funny, but the concern over their military might, in hindsight, was foreshadowing for what we're seeing right now.

i'll explain that^ by saying:  In the west specifically here we've concerned over Russia since WWII.  The 'threat' prompted all kinds of expenditures and development of weapons and wares, and because they were sold as 'capable'.  Our entire defense mechanism is based on keeping the fight elsewhere.  we are supremely expeditionary and we're really the only might on the planet capable of waging a war off our soil where the threat to defenders is real and present.  We figured russia to be the same.. they are not the same. however, like N.Korea, if teh fight was brought to them they'd be an entire different nut to crack.... still not as tough as we though they were, but not a walk in the park either.

the corruption in the ranks of russia is apparent here too- the expenditures to support their military readiness was squandered.  they're operational tempo on paper was and is unsustainable and unobtainable not due to piss poor planning or strategy, but based on material capability.  it's not like they didn't spend the money to outfit the ranks, it's just little of that money actually went to that outfitting.... Chinese tires is the glaring example that caused all grades of grief and is the principle cause for a great big ass stuck convoy.

all that said- and adding that putin thought he was ready for such an adventure and being completely wrong (and because of lack of understanding actual readiness of his forces), there is another fold to this that everyone here needs to wrap their brain around- and that is the simple fact that information is being carefully controlled about this entire circumstance.  there are parts in whole we have no clue about.  the media is actively oppressing opposition to their narrative.  before you think i'm being critical of Ukraine and giving russia an out, what i'm going to say contrary is "both sides are bad".  just because there is one bad guy doesn't mean there aren't two and certainly doesn't mean there is a good guy.  Ukraine is as corrupt a nation as there is- right up there with Russia, China, and US.  when there is corruption present and on the scale it is, all bets are off when it comes to pointing out who is right and who is wrong.  if you think you've obtained enough information to make a determination about that, and from the worldwide cabal of fake news peddlers, you're part of the pliable and moldable populace those in the seat of power want in a citizenry. 

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1947 on: April 15, 2022, 11:25:05 AM »
The expeditionary nature of our military force is why we spend so much.

If we only had to defend CONUS+2, it would be a lot smaller.

utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1948 on: April 15, 2022, 11:38:16 AM »
Russia has proven itself to lack expeditionary capabilities, by my reckoning, and that is all.  Invading Russia would be an entirely different argument.  It's funny, but the concern over their military might, in hindsight, was foreshadowing for what we're seeing right now.

i'll explain that^ by saying:  In the west specifically here we've concerned over Russia since WWII.  The 'threat' prompted all kinds of expenditures and development of weapons and wares, and because they were sold as 'capable'.  Our entire defense mechanism is based on keeping the fight elsewhere.  we are supremely expeditionary and we're really the only might on the planet capable of waging a war off our soil where the threat to defenders is real and present.  We figured russia to be the same.. they are not the same. however, like N.Korea, if teh fight was brought to them they'd be an entire different nut to crack.... still not as tough as we though they were, but not a walk in the park either.

the corruption in the ranks of russia is apparent here too- the expenditures to support their military readiness was squandered.  they're operational tempo on paper was and is unsustainable and unobtainable not due to piss poor planning or strategy, but based on material capability.  it's not like they didn't spend the money to outfit the ranks, it's just little of that money actually went to that outfitting.... Chinese tires is the glaring example that caused all grades of grief and is the principle cause for a great big ass stuck convoy.

all that said- and adding that putin thought he was ready for such an adventure and being completely wrong (and because of lack of understanding actual readiness of his forces), there is another fold to this that everyone here needs to wrap their brain around- and that is the simple fact that information is being carefully controlled about this entire circumstance.  there are parts in whole we have no clue about.  the media is actively oppressing opposition to their narrative.  before you think i'm being critical of Ukraine and giving russia an out, what i'm going to say contrary is "both sides are bad".  just because there is one bad guy doesn't mean there aren't two and certainly doesn't mean there is a good guy.  Ukraine is as corrupt a nation as there is- right up there with Russia, China, and US.  when there is corruption present and on the scale it is, all bets are off when it comes to pointing out who is right and who is wrong.  if you think you've obtained enough information to make a determination about that, and from the worldwide cabal of fake news peddlers, you're part of the pliable and moldable populace those in the seat of power want in a citizenry. 

This is akin to the "everybody's doing it" cop-out for cheating in college athletics.  It's explicitly untrue but worse, it's dangerously misleading and excusing.

Sure, every nation has its bad actors and its bad cultural doctrine.  And that's as far as this line of thought needs to go.  Because:

Ukraine didn't invade Russia, Ukraine is not currently engaged in genocide of the Russian people.

That's all that need be said.  

The End.

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1949 on: April 15, 2022, 11:41:27 AM »
Someone else might argue:

Ukraine was going to join NATO.
Ukraine was dominated by neoNazis, as is Germany and Poland (and the US)
NATO was a threat to Russia now on a large front.
NATO would likely have invaded Russia, so this invasion was justified.

Or something like that.

utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1950 on: April 15, 2022, 11:42:23 AM »
Someone else might argue:

Ukraine was going to join NATO.
Ukraine was dominated by neoNazis, as is Germany and Poland (and the US)
NATO was a threat to Russia now on a large front.
NATO would likely have invaded Russia, so this invasion was justified.

Or something like that.
Yes, psychopathic liars might say such things.


Cincydawg

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utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1953 on: April 15, 2022, 12:44:20 PM »
Yeah I've seen speculation that it was self-induced.  The Russians certainly claim that.  But of course, as has been well established, everything they publish is a lie.

Four things give me pause and make me think it was a result of some kind of Ukrainian attack:

1) Ukraine called it out and reported it first, many hours before US intel noted it and almost a day before Russia acknowledged it.  If they hadn't been striking it intentionally, I'm not sure they would have had eyes on it to notice it in distress.

2) Russia moved the rest of its Black Sea fleet further south and further away from the Ukrainian coast.  If the Moscow really did encounter a self-induced accident and not a land-based missile attack from Ukraine, why would Russia be concerned with being too close to the coastline? Why yesterday, all of a sudden, would it seem like the prudent time to move the fleet back?

3) After days of light or zero shelling, last night Russia released a furious barrage of cruise missiles at almost every Ukrainian town they could.  Places they'd stopped shelling weeks ago, got a healthy dose of Russian attempted genocide once again throughout the night hours.

4) Their state TV hosts were furiously vociferous about wanting revenge on Ukraine for the sinking of the warship.  That seems like a curious stance to take, if it was just a self-induced accident and the ship sank because of a storm.

utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1954 on: April 15, 2022, 12:59:43 PM »


Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1955 on: April 15, 2022, 01:00:32 PM »
Finland ‘highly likely’ to join NATO, minister says | The Hill

Finland’s Minister of European Affairs said the country is “highly likely” to join NATO as Russia’s invasion of Ukraine continues.
Tytti Tuppurainen told Sky News that polls in Finland, which borders Russia, show significant support for joining the alliance.
“At this point I would say it is highly likely, but a decision has not yet been made,” Tuppurainen said.



Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1956 on: April 15, 2022, 01:05:55 PM »
Russia sends formal letter warning US to stop arming Ukraine: report (msn.com)

Russia has sent a formal letter to the U.S. warning that shipments of sensitive weapons from the United States and NATO were exacerbating tensions in Ukraine and could lead to “unpredictable consequences,” The Washington Post reported.
The letter, which was viewed by he Post, added that the U.S. has flouted the rules governing the transfer of weapons to conflict zones.
According to the letter dated Tuesday, Russia accused NATO of impeding early peace negotiation with Ukraine “in order to continue the bloodshed.”


utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1957 on: April 15, 2022, 01:13:26 PM »
Every word a lie, every accusation a confession.


Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1958 on: April 15, 2022, 01:17:26 PM »
Do you think Finland is correct if they apply for NATO membership?

They'd be accepted quickly.  (Do they have neoNazis up there?)


utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1959 on: April 15, 2022, 01:26:04 PM »
Are you asking me?  I think they'd be doing the right thing for them, in the short term.  But like I said yesterday, I think this insane war marks the end of Russian power and that ultimately they won't need NATO protection because Russia's not going to be able to replace its heavy losses in troops or equipment.  Beyond that, their brand of mob-style leadership with its extreme corruption, thuggery, and theft, is never going to lend itself to effectively channeling its funds into proper military build-out and maintenance.  

If they were ever able to put together a truly democratically elected government with oversight and checks and balances, they might be able to correct their inherent cultural problems which inevitably lead to their poor military capability, so they could become a threat then.  But of course, without a psychotic autocrat at their head, they'd also be a lot less likely to ever attempt invasion and genocide in the first place.

So I think Finland can and should want NATO membership now, but a year from now, it will be unnecessary.  Same for Sweden.

And from a US perspective, I'd prefer them not join NATO and become yet another nation that is dependent on US protection. 


 

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