header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: The Ukraine Topic

 (Read 77273 times)

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37604
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1820 on: April 05, 2022, 09:21:05 PM »
In clear cases of obvious genocide, not saying anything at all, is the same as approval.
well, not literally ;)
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1821 on: April 05, 2022, 09:24:39 PM »
I don't know. I feel like the condemnation stuff doesn't really accomplish much and then blasting India for not condemning accomplishes even less. The only way India could've used any leverage they had to really put pressure on Russia was by not buying Russian oil. They didn't do that- but neither did anyone else really, aside from the US and then the UK announcing they are still going to buy Russian oil- but will be "phasing out" Russian oil by the end of December.

Genocide is a loaded word that implies ethnic cleansing- like Hitler killing 6+ million Jews and then like 1+ million Romani. Putin's war is obviously awful, atrocious, and no doubt a crime- but I don't know if it goes that far. And he's also been killing many Ukrainians who are ethnic russian. He leveled Mariupol and turned it into rubble- and it was a city that was nearly half ethnic russian.

I don't see anyone blasting India.  I see one outlet saying they are "hardening their stance" and I see me saying their silence was a sign of tacit approval-- which, of course, it is.  But I'm certainly glad they're now making public statements to the contrary.  I believe that's important.

And I already addressed the genocide terminology.  You don't have to succeed in genocide to be attempting genocide, and that's exactly what is happening.  By definition, of course.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1822 on: April 05, 2022, 09:29:50 PM »
well, not literally ;)
Russia is literally attempting genocide.  You know, by definition.  I find definitions to be important, rather than just talking about our feelings about things that are happening, it helps clarify things when opinions and personal biases can lead us astray.

India was literally non-committal, not stating a position publicly.  This is of course a fact.  A literal embodiment of truth.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1823 on: April 05, 2022, 09:33:35 PM »
US top level planners- this time General Mark Milley- the highest ranking officer in the entire US military....saying this war will last years.



Image

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1824 on: April 05, 2022, 11:23:06 PM »
US top level planners- this time General Mark Milley- the highest ranking officer in the entire US military....saying this war will last years.



Image

I just saw this on the news as well.  At this point it's not surprising but is certainly disheartening.


Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1826 on: April 05, 2022, 11:27:57 PM »
I just saw this on the news as well.  At this point it's not surprising but is certainly disheartening.
disheartening is not the right word. if this thing lasts years Ukraine will look like Syria or Yemen or Iraq or Afghanistan. Some parts of the country already do. I can't imagine this going on for 3-4-5 more years. It's sickening.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1827 on: April 05, 2022, 11:29:30 PM »
disheartening is not the right word. if this thing lasts years Ukraine will look like Syria or Yemen or Iraq or Afghanistan. Some parts of the country already do. I can't imagine this going on for 3-4-5 more years. It's sickening.
For sure.  I was slow-playing it more than a little bit.  I find it sickening as well, and can't imagine what those people are suffering through right now.  And we only know a small fraction of what's actually occurred.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1828 on: April 05, 2022, 11:57:29 PM »

https://twitter.com/incontextmedia/status/1511354553983193097?s=20&t=nQmBTkCpa3Da7sFf7Xo-Kg


while I absolutely do know Putin is a war criminal and agree with his sentiment- I don't think it's wise for the President of the United States to call Putin such or to continue to say he thinks Putin should be tried for war crimes. For one I don't think it will help ease tensions or help in anyway to bring about an end to this war.

And second I find it pretty wild Biden keeps pushing for this, considering war crimes are tried by the ICC- an entity that the US does not nor has ever recognized as a legitimate court with any kind of authority to prosecute anyone- an entity which US imposes economic sanctions on it's prosecutors- and lastly an entity in which the current President voted YES as a senator on legislation nicknamed the "Hague Invasion Act" - which was signed into law- which states that the US will invade the Netherlands and use military force to attack the Hague (ICC) to free any Americans held there. The law also bans federal, state and local governments and agencies from assisting the ICC in any way. The law also strictly prohibits the extradition of any person from the US to the ICC.

The law also bans US military aid to countries that are party to the ICC. Of course exemptions were carved in to allow for aid to NATO members and Taiwan and countries that have agreed not to hand over US nationals to the ICC. Pretty crazy sh*t.

Temp430

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2513
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1829 on: April 06, 2022, 07:14:19 AM »
Not too surprised by what the Russians are doing in Ukraine given Putin and the Russian army's track record.  Civilian massacres and chemical weapon attacks in Chechnya and Syria, poisonings and murder of political opponents and defectors at home and abroad, and the warnings of kill lists for occupied Ukraine.  The UN can not do anything so its up to the West.  The West should stop buying Russian energy immediately to cut off that income to Russia. All the other sanctions to date are pretty piddly in comparison.  And stop doing business with all Russian banks.  It would be a big hit to European economies but they should have seen this coming so I don't feel too bad for them. Putin has been doing things like this for over 20 years.
A decade of Victory over Penn State.

All in since 1969

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71632
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1830 on: April 06, 2022, 08:26:41 AM »
The West, Germany in particular, cannot stop buying Russian energy right now, they can't.  They are addicted.

And China and India would step in and take up the slack except for NG which is tougher to transport.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1831 on: April 06, 2022, 09:03:09 AM »
I don't characterize Germany as "addicted" to Russian oil and gas.  But they're certainly locked in, after decades of unwise energy policy.

And it's true that China and India can step in to cover the gaps in Russian sales, but it'll be at deep discounts to their current prices and to the world market. Even though only a handful of countries have actually sanctioned and banned the import of Russian oil and gas, Russia continues to struggle to find buyers for their products in the open marketplace.  Payment issues from global sanctions are part of it, and beyond that some global buyers are simply choosing not to, for their own reasons, even if their country allows it.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1832 on: April 06, 2022, 11:07:47 AM »
chemical weapon attacks in Chechnya and Syria,
I can't speak to Chechnya, because I'm not familiar with that topic enough- and I am certainly not defending Russia or Putin- but in regards to Syria- that was never accused of Russia, it was accused of Bashar al-Assad - and the evidence for some of those accusations fell apart at the seams under closer scrutiny. OPCW whistleblowers, WikiLeaks, and investigative reporters on the ground in Syria like Sy Hersh and Aaron Mate put some of those accusations into serious doubt. And regardless, that had nothing to do with Russia or Putin. Both the Syrian government and ISIL "rebels" had chemical weapon stocks- and both sides used them. 

IF you were asking me to pick a side in the Syrian war- Russia was on the right side. US was on the wrong side. Period. Bashar al-Assad might be a lot of things- but he's infinitely better than a bunch of theocratic psychopaths intent on a world caliphate and to bring the 21st century back to the 9th century. And all that ever happens when US removes a guy like Assad (see Iraq, Libya) is the country gets thrown into total f**king chaos and the people of the state wind up worse than they were before US got involved. 

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1833 on: April 06, 2022, 11:10:32 AM »
The West, Germany in particular, cannot stop buying Russian energy right now, they can't.  They are addicted.

And China and India would step in and take up the slack except for NG which is tougher to transport.
it's not that they are addicted to Russian oil or gas. That's a silly argument/statement. Germany needs to buy oil and natural gas from somewhere...because: they don't produce anywhere near enough to meet their needs. Russia just happens to be one of the top 2-3 producers of ng and crude oil in the entire world. And they also happen to produce way more than they could possibly ever use....which is why they are also top 2-3 exporters of both natural resources.

Germany can't just pull natural gas and oil out of their ass. Where are they suppose to buy it from?

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.