header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: The Ukraine Topic

 (Read 77284 times)

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1022 on: March 11, 2022, 04:37:40 PM »
Well, the world where they can't adjust borders also appears problematic.
The world where one country invades, murders, and slaughters its neighbors, certainly is problematic.  Looks like we're in agreement.

longhorn320

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1023 on: March 11, 2022, 04:38:48 PM »
Well, the world where they can't adjust borders also appears problematic.
Hitler and Napoleon agree with you
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13106
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1024 on: March 11, 2022, 04:39:35 PM »
I've readily agreed that invading sovereign nations is bad no matter who is doing it.

So now can we get back to the thread topic?
It's not about whether its bad, its whether it happens. It happens. So the question isn't whether it is "bad" or "good" but more about "why is it happening" and "how to make it stop." Those questions necessarily mean we have to look at what the countries want and why they aren't getting it.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71632
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1025 on: March 11, 2022, 04:41:23 PM »
Generally speaking, invasions of sovereign countries is something to avoid, not embrace, in my view.

It's a broad and complex topic, and really not part of what's trying to be discussed herein.  Not many think the West should sit back and allow Putin to invade Ukraine with zero consequence.  Maybe we should, maybe not, separate and very complex topic I think.

It strikes me as something that would lead to a less stable world.

Anyway, Russia seems to be biting off a tough hunk that is not being digested very well to date.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1026 on: March 11, 2022, 04:42:55 PM »
It's not about whether its bad, its whether it happens. It happens. So the question isn't whether it is "bad" or "good" but more about "why is it happening" and "how to make it stop." Those questions necessarily mean we have to look at what the countries want and why they aren't getting it.
Putin's already told us what he wants.  He sees Ukraine as Russian, and wants to own it.

Ukraine quite obviously disagrees.  Which is all that really needs to be said.

You can disagree that the US should be involved with providing aid to Ukraine.  That would be a reasonable discussion to have, and would be relevant to this thread topic.

longhorn320

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1027 on: March 11, 2022, 04:48:25 PM »
the bottom line is that the US did not do anything to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine

The UN has condemned it as has most of the world
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

utee94

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 17718
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1028 on: March 11, 2022, 05:03:19 PM »


The UN has condemned it as has most of the world

Yeah it's been a while since I've seen so much of the world united in thinking on an issue.  Pretty sure Putin wasn't anticipating that level of concerted response.

longhorn320

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 9345
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1029 on: March 11, 2022, 05:53:31 PM »
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1030 on: March 11, 2022, 06:49:44 PM »
Yeah, one quarter of negative GDP, and only in the most pessimistic scenario...

I feel that the direct impact of the Russia situation may not be, on its own, enough to cause a US recession. But it certainly seems like the US economy is balancing on the head of a pin right now, particularly with interest rates so low in the face of inflationary pressures...

Interest rates go up; cost of borrowing [and servicing debt] goes up, housing market crashes, and brings a hell of a lot more down with it.

I worry the Russia situation, which might not be enough on its own to hurt us, pushes us over the tipping point.
yeah....so this times 1,000. 

MaximumSam

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 13106
  • Liked:

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71632
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1032 on: March 11, 2022, 07:42:00 PM »
Stability globally is generally desirable,  I don't know of an exception.  Instability should be combatted where possible.  This is one purpose of the UN (not that it does a very good job).  If the world sat back and said "We don't really care about Ukraine" and did nothing, it would be a clear sign to other powers that they could also engage in adventurism along the lines of the 1930s.

I doubt the Israeli leader would feel the same if Syria et al. had overrun most of Israel and offered "terms" similar to what Putin has offered.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1033 on: March 11, 2022, 07:58:30 PM »
This notion Russia is justified in invading Ukraine is, to me, rather fantastical.  The implication Russians will blame the US is the same.  They know what's happened. 
who said they were justified? where did you read the word justified? reading and comprehension, please. There is no scenario where any invasion of another country is justified. None. Invasion is the ultimate act of aggression and is a war crime. 

Putin and Putin to alone is blame for his crimes. Having said that, the US has arrogantly, recklessly and stupidly been antagonizing the situation, and for no valid reason that I can see. I suggest you read up/listen to people far smarter than you or I, and who have studied this topic ad nauseam. Professor John Mearsheimer, Professor Stephen F. Cohen, Professor Noam Chomsky, plenty of former CIA analysts, plenty of former US diplomats. So many different people of so many different backgrounds and political stripes- all in agreement on this. 

Despite what you think- you are just FACTUALLY wrong- as the US gov't officials at the highest levels made repeated verbal assurances to Mikahil Gorbachev that NATO would not expand any further east if concessions were made for Germany to reunite. The same Germany that just 40 years prior to reunification invaded Gorbachev's country and completely destroyed it. This is documented many times on official records from declassified documents from 5 different governments. It's a matter of record and a matter of fact. It's all there to read in the declassified US, UK, West German, USSR, and French government documents. I've sent you think many times, it's from National Security archives of The George Washington University- there are 40+ actual documents where you can read them all for yourself. Not linking it again.
 
Bush II made the disastrous attempt to force countries like Ukraine and Georgia into NATO, but thanks to the objections of France and Germany- the British were able to broker the deal to give those countries open ended "invitations". This was a massive mistake to say the least. Even one of the biggest Anti-Russian hawks- Fiona Hill- who worked in the Bush II administration at the time- openly said it was the biggest mistake Bush II could've made and called it the absolute worst case scenario in interviews. 

Things were pretty calm in Ukraine though and didn't go into nuclear metldown until 2014, when an even stupider Obama administration thought it'd be a great idea to get involved in the internal affairs of another country and back a coup of a democratically elected government and hand pick the replacement government- and pull Ukraine into US orbit and turn it into an effective US colony- which let's face it- it has been since 2014. The backstory and details of which are explained below:  
https://spaceworms.substack.com/p/the-us-is-culpable-in-todays-ukraine?s=r

Putin is to blame for his own war crimes and actions. US has thrown gasoline on the fire and are sacrificing Ukraine and trying to use it as a quasi-Afghanistan to "bleed the Russians". US does not give a shit about Ukraine. US didn't let them into NATO after 14 years. US has a security agreement with Ukraine via 1994 Budapest Memorandum. Zelenskyy has asked the US repeatedly to come their aide via this agreement and US refuses. US isn't setting up No Fly Zones. When Sec of State Blinken "gave the green light to Poland to fly fighter jets" in Ukraine, Poland turned around and said "we'll donate them to you, you guys fly them in" and US said...."uh no, we can't do that....it's too risky for us".

US has been flooding the country for years with arms to support an insurgency while Ukraine gets destroyed and Russia gets bled in the process.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1034 on: March 11, 2022, 07:58:39 PM »
He's CONSTANTLY blaming US actions, CONSTANTLY, and to me, that is justification, or a rather simplistic and incorrect effort to say "Well, Russia was worried about Ukraine, so they invaded."  I can't take it any other way.  I might as well listen to a Putin SPOX.

Ukraine was zero threat to Russia, zero. 
yeah, well that's YOUR opinion. obviously the leaders of Russia disagreed with your opinion. Even it's former leader, the constantly drunk Clinton stooge Yeltsin would disagree with your opinion. Many others who are not Russian or leaders of Russia, also happen to disagree with your opinion.

Why don't you look on a map and get a clue as to why Russia would perceive Ukraine in NATO as a potential threat to them. If Ukraine was in NATO and say US decided to invade Russia one day, they would literally be unable to halt a land invasion. Ukraine as a neutral buffer pushes their defensive lines all the way back to the Carpathian mountains and it narrows their exposure across the north european plain to only the eastern border of Poland. With Ukraine in NATO, the NATO front lines are way beyond the Carpathians and far across the widest section of the north european plain and place Russias new defensible front line to the Ukraine border and across nearly 1,500 miles of wide open, flat, land- and only 180 miles from Volgograd. And if Volgograd was taken it would shut down the Volga river and cut off oil & gas supplies from the Caspian Sea to Moscow. 

The Baltics simply don't matter to them much, they were pissed about it- but the threat is nowhere near as real, as they could cut off and encircle the Baltics from Kaliningrad and Belarus via the suwalki gap.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14379
  • Liked:
Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #1035 on: March 11, 2022, 07:58:52 PM »
What the US does previously is immaterial to any justification of this invasion.  This was wrong, and I'm delighted we're hammering the Russian economy.
Who is justifying the invasion? NO ONE is. 

What the US does previously is not immaterial. How can US sanction anyone. US has no moral high ground and the sanctions are a joke that will just crush regular people. Who sanctioned US when it invaded Afghanistan? Iraq? Oh yeah, that's right. No one. Because it's OK when US does war crimes. US consistently violated international law. Which is part of the reason why no one respects international law. 

And you're delighted we're hamming the Russian economy? You're delighted that instability in Russian energy and grain exports that are vital to the global economy- will cause disruptions affecting the entire world? You're delighted that tens of millions of regular ass working class Russians who did nothing wrong at all are being crushed? You're delighted that millions of Americans who are already being crushed by record inflation and rising fuel prices are getting crushed? What are you? A psychopath?

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.