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Topic: The Ukraine Topic

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Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #350 on: March 02, 2022, 12:21:56 PM »
Explaining root causes that contributed to an action does not equal arguing that the action is moral or legal.
I was responding to this exchange.  If he wants to explain how this war is legal and moral, fine with me, somewhere else, like A51.  I don't see why we should debate how this war is legal and moral here, the topic for me is absurd.


Quote from: Cincydawg on Today at 11:58:58 AM
Quote
You are allowed to think it is bonkers, on some other thread.  I can't see how the legality and morality of THIS war is remotely questionable.  It's not worth discussion.

Yeah, but see, that's just your opinion. And in my opinion, it's downright goofy to have a "discussion" about it that isn't actually a discussion. Is it really "political" to talk about United States' actions abroad impact other countries decision making? Otherwise it's just an echo chamber where we decry badness and espouse goodness.




betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #351 on: March 02, 2022, 12:23:09 PM »
I'd also argue that pointing out past actions that are of questionable morality or legality are not relevant, and would constitute the debate fallacy known as "whataboutism"...

MaximumSam

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #352 on: March 02, 2022, 12:23:22 PM »

Quote
I was responding to this exchange.  If he wants to explain how this war is legal and moral, fine with me, somewhere else, like A51.  I don't see why we should debate how this war is legal and moral here, the topic for me is absurd.
Does everyone have to be bound by your lack of interest in a subject?

utee94

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #353 on: March 02, 2022, 12:24:29 PM »
President Biden seems to be going out of his way not to aggravate Putin any more than necessary.  Closing US airspace to Russia only after Canada did so days earlier.  Similarly following the EU lead with the other sanctions.  Exempting Russian energy exports/sales and associated financial transactions from sanctions.  On the other  hand the EU appears to be serious about supplying the Ukraine with arms.  Hard to forecast the direction this conflict will take other than total ruin in Ukraine.  Putin leveled the Chechen capitol Grozny around 2001(?). And that was inside Russia.
I'm in favor of Europe taking the lead on this. As horrifying as I find the Russian atrocities being committed, especially those against civilians,  this is a European war.  Those ethnic groups and regions have been warring against one another for thousands of years and a lot of that comes back up every time any conflict arises.

MaximumSam

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #354 on: March 02, 2022, 12:31:42 PM »
I'd also argue that pointing out past actions that are of questionable morality or legality are not relevant, and would constitute the debate fallacy known as "whataboutism"...
I mean, sure, relitigating old arguments is besides the point. However, Russia didn't invade Ukraine on a dare - there is a long history here. It certainly merits discussion on what motivated our country to invade other countries, because Russia is somewhat similar. They are a big country with a big military that decided that Ukraine was a threat, similar to how we though Iraq and Afghanistan were threats. 

SFBadger96

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #355 on: March 02, 2022, 12:36:27 PM »
One curious thing this war brings into some relief, but which doesn't get a lot of attention in U.S. media (which is the only I'm particularly in tune to, and even then not especially), is the history of places and nations in Europe. The U.S. has a very state-centered view of history. Europe, as I understand from my European sister-in-law, really does not. This came up in a discussion about Austria's place in Europe and the world (she's Austrian--that, according to her, is like German, but with a sense of humor). She reminded our family that Austria, as a concept, is only about 150 years old--younger than our "young" country. That's also true of Italy, Germany, Spain, and most of Eastern Europe. Prior to statehood (or nationhood, if you prefer), these areas were united by various monarchies that didn't really have the same borders that we think of today. So the Habsburg monarchy/empire was more the driving force in much of what we think of Austria, but like all monarchies of the time (and basically the preceding thousand years), it expanded and contracted with the changing familial relationships, and borders changed, too. That also means that many of regions of Europe aren't really appropriately considered by the national borders that resulted from the World Wars and the end of the Soviet empire, as much as by their historical regional connections.

My sister-in-law is Carinthian--her region of Austria. She is maybe more Carinthian than Austrian. And at least from her perspective, that's pretty common in much of Europe. As opposed to here where, even--I think--in the former rebellious states, we tend to be more American than [insert your state here]. Look at Spain--there are still separatists in Spain, in Catalonia. The Catalans recently declared their independence from Spain. Didn't do anything to Spain's actual borders or governance, but they are still trying to carve out their own nation. Wales, in the UK, not to mention Scotland and Northern Ireland, is another good example.

That's one of many factors that makes Russia's connections to part of Ukraine (and Georgia, Chechnya, Moldova, Belarus, etc.) much more complicated than simply: this is where the line was drawn (and it had a big part in the annexation of the Crimea back in 2014). There are parts of the Ukraine that *feel* more like Russia--and whose citizens identify more as Russians. What to do about that? I'm no expert in that, though I'm quite sure invading the Ukraine and trying to remove a pro-Ukrainian/pro-Western government to install a puppet Russian regime reminiscent of the Soviet Union isn't the right answer.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #356 on: March 02, 2022, 12:40:24 PM »
I mean, sure, relitigating old arguments is besides the point. However, Russia didn't invade Ukraine on a dare - there is a long history here. It certainly merits discussion on what motivated our country to invade other countries, because Russia is somewhat similar. They are a big country with a big military that decided that Ukraine was a threat, similar to how we though Iraq and Afghanistan were threats.
How was Ukraine a threat? 

Putin doesn't see it as a threat, he sees it as a conquest.

Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #357 on: March 02, 2022, 12:41:59 PM »
The United Nations on Wednesday passed a resolution condemning Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in an extraordinary effort to unite member countries against Russia, which holds a permanent seat on the Security Council.
Of the 193-member body, 141 nations voted in favor of the resolution, with 35 abstentions and five voting against, including Russia, Belarus, Syria, Eritrea and North Korea.  
The text of the resolution included "demands that the Russian Federation immediately, completely, and unconditionally withdraw all of its military forces from the territory of Ukraine within its internationally recognized borders."



Cincydawg

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #358 on: March 02, 2022, 12:43:20 PM »
The concept of a nation state with defined borders is relatively new in history.  Lines were drawn in 1919 that led to other conflicts later.  It's an interesting topic, but I would prefer this specific thread be more about current events, what people are seeing in the "news" and what they think it means.


Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #359 on: March 02, 2022, 12:45:31 PM »
Yup, whatever mistakes the US has made historically is not relevant to this discussion, at all. 
so if you mess with a wasps nest for 15 years (really, more like 20+) and repeatedly get warned what might happen if you keep provoking the wasps nest, and then you keep provoking the wasps nest, and the wasp goes off and stings- you've got zero culpability and that is not relevant at all? Well, ok. Going to disagree slightly there.

MaximumSam

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #360 on: March 02, 2022, 12:45:53 PM »
How was Ukraine a threat?

Putin doesn't see it as a threat, he sees it as a conquest.
I don't really agree with that, in the sense that I don't think that is the motivating factor. I think it makes sense that Russia sees the continued movement of weapons into Ukraine and a stronger Ukraine military as a threat. What led to diplomacy breaking down and military force being used. I don't really know, other than it seems clear that Russia has made very little headway with any of their interests in the region. It's not difficult to imagine a similar scenario playing out here, given the Cuba missile crisis.

rolltidefan

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #361 on: March 02, 2022, 12:46:42 PM »
I'm in favor of Europe taking the lead on this. As horrifying as I find the Russian atrocities being committed, especially those against civilians,  this is a European war.  Those ethnic groups and regions have been warring against one another for thousands of years and a lot of that comes back up every time any conflict arises.
this. i'm also perfectly fine with the us/biden deferring to european allies in what sanctions to impose. both from a perspective of they might know what might be most effective and from one of wanting to limit the resulting pains of sanctions to just russia as much as possible. everyone will feel it some, but if we can limit that pain to us and allies and maximize it to russia, well then yes please.

Mdot21

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #362 on: March 02, 2022, 12:48:33 PM »
How was Ukraine a threat?

Putin doesn't see it as a threat, he sees it as a conquest.
Russia has only been talking about this for almost 15 years. They see NATO incursion into Ukraine and Ukraine as part of the West as a threat of the highest oder.

Classified US diplomatic cables...


https://wikileaks.org/plusd/cables/08MOSCOW265_a.html

Temp430

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Re: The Ukraine Topic
« Reply #363 on: March 02, 2022, 12:48:37 PM »
How was Ukraine a threat?

It was a threat to his vision of a greater Russia.  A prosperous Ukraine right on Putin's border is not a military threat but a threat to his dictatorship/kleptocracy.
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