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Topic: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #14 on: Today at 12:57:48 AM »
I think it's as simple as their great coach left.  He didn't coach there during WWII, and when he came back, it wasn't the same.  

When HCs return to a previous stop, it never seems to go as well as the first time, does it?  John Robinson at USC, Bill Snyder at K-State.  I'm sure there are plenty of other WWII examples like Bernie Bierman, but I really do just think that's it.

It's also a major indicator that a school is actually an elite program vs a one-coach peak when they have multiple elite runs under different HCs.  Minnesota had that from the 1910s-1940ish, but it's simply highly unlikely to continue that forever.  That's a good 30-year run of multiple peaks under multiple HCs.  

Florida had a great 30-year run under multiple HCs, from the early 80s to 2012.  The ebbs are fun, but the flows afterward suck.  From 83-85, the Gators went 27-4-3 under Pell and then Hall.  Spurrier won 102 games in the 90s.  Meyer won 2 NCs.  Hell, even Muschamp had us at #3 going into the bowls one year.  
But that time ended, and it happened to be 70 years after Minnesota's run.  
Nebraska's run was about 30 years, too.  1970-2001.  Only 2 HCs, but both reached the pinnacle multiple times.  Idk, maybe there's something to 30-year runs.
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847badgerfan

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 07:22:44 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on Today at 12:57:48 AM
I think it's as simple as their great coach left.  He didn't coach there during WWII, and when he came back, it wasn't the same. 

When HCs return to a previous stop, it never seems to go as well as the first time, does it?  John Robinson at USC, Bill Snyder at K-State.  I'm sure there are plenty of other WWII examples like Bernie Bierman, but I really do just think that's it.

It's also a major indicator that a school is actually an elite program vs a one-coach peak when they have multiple elite runs under different HCs.  Minnesota had that from the 1910s-1940ish, but it's simply highly unlikely to continue that forever.  That's a good 30-year run of multiple peaks under multiple HCs. 

Florida had a great 30-year run under multiple HCs, from the early 80s to 2012.  The ebbs are fun, but the flows afterward suck.  From 83-85, the Gators went 27-4-3 under Pell and then Hall.  Spurrier won 102 games in the 90s.  Meyer won 2 NCs.  Hell, even Muschamp had us at #3 going into the bowls one year. 
But that time ended, and it happened to be 70 years after Minnesota's run. 
Nebraska's run was about 30 years, too.  1970-2001.  Only 2 HCs, but both reached the pinnacle multiple times.  Idk, maybe there's something to 30-year runs.
Greg Schiano comes to mind, although the teams he's up against now are far superior to what he was up against in the depleted Big Easy.
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FearlessF

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #16 on: Today at 08:24:06 AM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on Today at 12:24:07 AM
Sure, but that is far from apples-to-spples.  Nebraska played less high end teams in each of those seasons than a team at that level today would play in the playoffs alone.

Even on the question of championships though, I generally agree with @OrangeAfroMan above. Even if one program managed to field the best team four years in a row the chances that they'd make it through three 12-yeam playoffs aren't very good because beating high-end opponents back-to-back-to-back is pretty unlikely even if your team is the best.
Ed Zachery
not apples to apples - the game has changed and become much more competitive
Saban bailed out

conference championships for example - winning the Big 10, or Big 8, or SEC or even the Big 12, (5) seasons in a decade was much easier before they had 18 teams
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 10:25:38 AM »
Quote from: FearlessF on Today at 08:24:06 AM
conference championships for example - winning the Big 10, or Big 8, or SEC or even the Big 12, (5) seasons in a decade was much easier before they had 18 teams
WRT Conference Championships I think the bigger change (even bigger than expansion to 18 teams) is the pre/post CCG issue because before CCGs you had split titles.  

For example, during the famed 10-Year-War between Woody and his apprentice the Buckeyes and Wolverines won eight conference titles EACH.  
  • 8 Ohio State:  1969, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977
  • 8 Michigan:  1969, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1974, 1976, 1977, 1978
  • 1 Michigan State:  1978

In that entire 10 years the only outright titles were:
  • 1970 Ohio State, one game ahead of Michigan
  • 1971 Michigan, two and a half games ahead of Northwestern
  • 1975 Ohio State, one game ahead of Michigan

The Big Ten awarded 17 conference titles in the 10 years from 1969-1978.  That isn't just unlikely now, it is mathematically impossible.  Now there are only a maximum of 10 titles to go around each 10 years.  
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847badgerfan

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 10:38:21 AM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on Today at 10:25:38 AM
The Big Ten awarded 17 conference titles in the 10 years from 1969-1978.  That isn't just unlikely now, it is mathematically impossible.  Now there are only a maximum of 10 titles to go around each 10 years. 

The Commish said yesterday that if they go to 24 teams in the playoff that the B1G championship game would go away.

Which would mean... you know.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 11:20:38 AM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on Today at 10:38:21 AM
The Commish said yesterday that if they go to 24 teams in the playoff that the B1G championship game would go away.
It doesn't serve much of a purpose even in the 12-team era:
2024:
  • Oregon won it and got the #1 seed in the CFP, lost in the quarterfinals to #8 seed Ohio State.  
  • Penn State lost it and got the #6 seed in the CFP, beat #11 seed SMU, beat #3 seed BoiseSt in the quarterfinals, lost to #7 seed ND in the semi-finals.  
2025:
  • Indiana won it and got the #1 seed in the CFP, beat #9 Bama in the quarterfinals, beat #5 Oregon in the semifinals, beat #10 Miami in the NC.  
  • Ohio State lost it and got the #2 seed in the CFP, lost to #10 Miami in the quarterfinals.  

It didn't make much difference.  
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #20 on: Today at 11:30:02 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on Today at 12:57:48 AM
I think it's as simple as their great coach left.  He didn't coach there during WWII, and when he came back, it wasn't the same. 

When HCs return to a previous stop, it never seems to go as well as the first time, does it?  John Robinson at USC, Bill Snyder at K-State.  I'm sure there are plenty of other WWII examples like Bernie Bierman, but I really do just think that's it.

It's also a major indicator that a school is actually an elite program vs a one-coach peak when they have multiple elite runs under different HCs.  Minnesota had that from the 1910s-1940ish, but it's simply highly unlikely to continue that forever.  That's a good 30-year run of multiple peaks under multiple HCs. 

Florida had a great 30-year run under multiple HCs, from the early 80s to 2012.  The ebbs are fun, but the flows afterward suck.  From 83-85, the Gators went 27-4-3 under Pell and then Hall.  Spurrier won 102 games in the 90s.  Meyer won 2 NCs.  Hell, even Muschamp had us at #3 going into the bowls one year. 
But that time ended, and it happened to be 70 years after Minnesota's run. 
Nebraska's run was about 30 years, too.  1970-2001.  Only 2 HCs, but both reached the pinnacle multiple times.  Idk, maybe there's something to 30-year runs.
I'm sure that is part of it but . . .

Ohio State was one of the top teams from 1936-1942 (see above).  They lost a great coach, Paul Brown*.  The Buckeyes weren't great in the late 40s but they weren't awful and then they took off under Woody starting in 1951.  

*Paul Brown:  IMHO, Paul Brown is the greatest football coach of all time.  The guy was successful at the HS, College, and NFL levels and introduced a lot of things that are still in use today.  He won an NC at Ohio State in 1942 then got drafted into the Navy and coached the Great Lakes Bluejackets during WWII.  Ohio State expected him to come back post-war but he got a humongous (at the time) money offer from the brand new NFL franchise in Cleveland and went there instead.  He dominated pro football in the late 40s and early 50s.  

My point is that Ohio State lost a phenomenal coach to WWII but returned to prominence anyway because the underlying structure remained.  Similarly, Michigan was pretty good from 1936-1942 and roared back post-war.  It seems to me that most of the teams that were very good immediately before WWII returned to being very good post-war but Minnesota simply didn't.  
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847badgerfan

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #21 on: Today at 11:34:14 AM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on Today at 11:20:38 AM
It doesn't serve much of a purpose even in the 12-team era:
2024:
  • Oregon won it and got the #1 seed in the CFP, lost in the quarterfinals to #8 seed Ohio State. 
  • Penn State lost it and got the #6 seed in the CFP, beat #11 seed SMU, beat #3 seed BoiseSt in the quarterfinals, lost to #7 seed ND in the semi-finals. 
2025:
  • Indiana won it and got the #1 seed in the CFP, beat #9 Bama in the quarterfinals, beat #5 Oregon in the semifinals, beat #10 Miami in the NC. 
  • Ohio State lost it and got the #2 seed in the CFP, lost to #10 Miami in the quarterfinals. 

It didn't make much difference. 

Just saying that we will once again see co-champs in the conference.
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FearlessF

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #22 on: Today at 11:39:02 AM »
still much tougher to be a co-chump with 18 teams
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 11:59:16 AM »
Quote from: FearlessF on Today at 11:39:02 AM
still much tougher to be a co-chump with 18 teams
Tougher?  Maybe.  

Much tougher?  I don't think so.  

There are more teams but you aren't playing all of them.  With a nine-game schedule and 18 teams in the league you are missing fully half of them (yourself included) so you could end up with a 4-way tie at 8-1 or 7-2.  One of those teams might not even be all that good, they might just pull off one upset and miss a slew of top teams and get to eight wins mostly by beating up doormats.  
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847badgerfan

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #24 on: Today at 12:31:30 PM »
Things look different from year-to-year too now. I don't know who is even on what team anymore. I know 2026 looks to be much different than 2025.





Iowa and Minnesota will always be on the Wisconsin schedule, so the other 7 games rotate.

No IU, UM, UfO, or OSU this year.
« Last Edit: Today at 12:46:42 PM by 847badgerfan »
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #25 on: Today at 12:35:25 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on Today at 12:31:30 PM
Things look different from year-to-year too now. I don't know who is even on what team anymore. I know 2026 looks to be much different than 2025.

I don't even know what teams are in the Big Ten anymore.  Have a hard enough time remembering the total number of teams is 18.  

How does the Big Ten make its schedules now?  Front-office fiat decisions every year?  Some rotation schedule?
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847badgerfan

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #26 on: Today at 12:46:19 PM »
Rotation teams are home/away over two seasons. Wisconsin has 7 rotation games every year.

There is no rhyme or reason.
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ManHawk

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Re: WWII killed Minnesota Football, why?
« Reply #27 on: Today at 03:04:50 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on Today at 11:20:38 AM
It doesn't serve much of a purpose even in the 12-team era:
2024:
  • Oregon won it and got the #1 seed in the CFP, lost in the quarterfinals to #8 seed Ohio State. 
  • Penn State lost it and got the #6 seed in the CFP, beat #11 seed SMU, beat #3 seed BoiseSt in the quarterfinals, lost to #7 seed ND in the semi-finals. 
2025:
  • Indiana won it and got the #1 seed in the CFP, beat #9 Bama in the quarterfinals, beat #5 Oregon in the semifinals, beat #10 Miami in the NC. 
  • Ohio State lost it and got the #2 seed in the CFP, lost to #10 Miami in the quarterfinals. 

It didn't make much difference. 
But the winner gets a trophy.  Of course if they get rid of the CCG,  then they both get a trophy.
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