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Topic: Weekend Reflections

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2018, 07:04:40 PM »
Looks like a system that doesn't believe 3 of the top 8 teams in the country could possibly reside in the same conference.  
Cute.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2018, 07:30:53 PM »
Looks like a system that doesn't believe 3 of the top 8 teams in the country could possibly reside in the same conference.  
Cute.
No, it's a system that assigns value to a conference championship. Even the NFL puts all division champions to the playoffs.
Nobody is saying that the 2 at-large teams can't be from the same conference, in addition to their conference champion, for 3 total teams in the playoffs. It'll be rare, sure, but it can happen. 
But it's not about the 8 best teams in the country. It's about the 8 teams that have earned their shot. 5 of those teams earned it by winning their conference. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2018, 08:06:04 PM »
Looks like a system that doesn't believe 3 of the top 8 teams in the country could possibly reside in the same conference.  
Cute.
We have had this debate before so I'll keep this short:
First:
Bwar's example, and what I think the eventual 8-team playoff will be, will have the P5 Champs, the highest ranked G5 Champ, and TWO at-large teams.  Thus, one conference could get three berths (Champ and two at-large).  
Second:
In theory I agree with your position that the playoff should at least strive to get the best two, four, six, eight, or sixteen teams regardless of conference.  In practice, I think this is extraordinarily difficult because there is so little inter-league play.  
I think most of us *think* that Alabama is the best team but their toughest OOC opponent is a Louisville team that went 8-5 last year.  
Most of us *think* that Clemson is a really good team but their best OOC opponent is a USCe team that went 5-3 in the SEC-E last year.  
Most of us *think* that Georgia is a really good team but their best OOC opponent is a GaTech team that went .500 in the ACC last year.  
Most of us *think* that Wisconsin is a really good team but their best OOC opponent is a BYU team that went 4-9 last year.  
There isn't very much high-end inter-league play which means that we are always left to guess how good the best teams in the various conferences are relative to each other.  
Finally:
A system like what Bwar listed would allow up to three teams from one conference.  I frankly think that is more than enough.  A lot of people here make the case that you can't be the best in the Nation if you aren't first the best in your conference.  That line of argument would have excluded Bama in 2017 and Ohio State in 2016.  I take a middle road between that position and yours.  I think that with tiebreakers being what they are and the absolute advantage of playing at home, sometimes the best team doesn't win their division.  Bama in 2017 and Ohio State in 2016 both lost a road game then tied for their Division Championship and missed their respective CG's because of their road loss.  I think that HFA is real and that both Bama 2017 and tOSU 2016 were the best teams in their conference.  However, if you aren't in the top-3 then I don't think you have much to complain about if you are left out of the playoffs.  I have trouble imagining a situation in which a fourth team from one conference would have a sympathetic case for inclusion.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2018, 08:06:33 PM »
In retrospect I didn't do a very good job of keeping that short, sorry.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2018, 11:00:31 PM »
Whatever, it's good stuff.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2018, 08:00:54 AM »
Looks like a system that doesn't believe 3 of the top 8 teams in the country could possibly reside in the same conference.  
Cute.
I always found this logic interesting. 
Are you looking for the best team? Or are you looking for the best field and letting the chips fall where they may? You’re a purist for he field, some want/see a different structure. 

FearlessF

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2018, 09:42:02 AM »
Auburn and Notre Dame from the current top 8 would be left out of the playoff.

the committee would probably find SOME way to put Notre Dame over UCF. Because helmet.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2018, 03:38:15 PM »
I've said before that I'm in favor of a system that has clear criteria upon which to qualify for the playoff. 

In the NFL, we've got that. Win your division, you're in. Don't win your division but have one of the two best records in your conference, you get in via wild card. You control your own destiny.

MLB? Win your division, you're in. Don't win your division? You can still qualify via wild card. You control your own destiny.

NBA? Top 8 record in your conference, you're in. This is too many teams IMHO, but you know based on looking at the standings sheet whether you qualify. You control your own destiny.

These sports all have a clear path to eligibility for the championship.

Then let's look at CFB:

Pre-1998: Who knows? If you won the beauty contest of voters at the end of the year, BOOM! you're the champion! Note that during this time there could be multiple undefeated teams, but only one of them would be champion. So you don't control your own destiny.

1998-2013: Same, except you have to finish top 2 in the beauty contest after regular season / CCG, and then you get a chance to play for the playoffs. Note that during this time there could be >2 undefeated teams at the end of the regular season / CCG, so you don't control your own destiny to get into the BCSCG.

2014-present: Same, except you have to finish top 4 in the beauty contest after regular season / CCG. While it's astronomically unlikely an undefeated team from P5 conference will be excluded from the CFP, there is no way absent going undefeated that you control your own destiny. And obviously winning your conference means nothing, as teams who haven't won conferences or even played in their CCG have gotten in over P5 conference winners. So you don't control your own destiny. 

It's one thing to say you want to have the "best" teams, but with so little interleague play, determining who the "best" teams are is a very tricky proposition. In 2014, OSU nearly missed the playoff, and only got in because the B12 didn't have a "true" champion. Then they won the whole thing. 

So that's why I want P5 conference champions included. Even if they're from a P5 conference that's incredibly weak. Even if it's some year that Purdue sneaks into the CCG at 8-4 with 2 OOC losses and somehow wins a 2-loss in conference tiebreaker in the B1G West and then barely squeaks by the undefeated B1G East champion [we'll say OSU] who took them too lightly. Yeah, they'll probably get smoked in the first round of the playoff when the committee gives them the 8 seed and they face Alabama. And OSU will probably still be in there as a 3 seed in the playoff anyway. 

But if you don't have a clear path, what happens if Purdue goes 12-1, winning their CCG, against what is perceived as a weak schedule, and winning several games by the skin of their teeth, and gets edged out by the 1-loss champions from ACC/B12/P12 and 2-loss SEC champ Alabama? Am I just supposed to say "OK" because Purdue isn't a helmet like Alabama is?

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2018, 08:02:46 PM »
I don't disagree, but I think "helmet" gets tossed around too often and often it's in the place of "all available evidence".  
Take 2011, where many thought Oklahoma State should get a shot because Alabama already had theirs.  But in every single possible metric, from schedule to recruiting stars to waterboy salaries to potential draft picks to the Dunkel Index to the eye test to blah blah blah, Alabama was the better team.  But someone merely not wanting to watch a rematch could just claim "helmet" and go on about their business.



I would absolutely, positively love a uniform infrastructure for college football, where we had realignment in which teams played everyone else in their conference, conference champs got into the playoff, and that's that.  But in 2018, where everything is so varied, I don't see how we do that.  And no, I do not want the 7th or 8th-best team in the country crowned the national champion.  

Say what you want about the historic 'mythical' national champion...they were never 8th-best in the country.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2018, 04:07:15 PM »
I like controversy.

We're headed out of the country tomorrow, not that it matters, but I won't be posting whatever happens.

Maybe tomorrow, we're staying one night in Miami.

Got upgraded to FC, yay, because of the wife.


847badgerfan

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #24 on: September 07, 2018, 04:23:49 PM »
This thread got a little messed up. K60 did a nice job and then
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #25 on: September 07, 2018, 04:34:37 PM »
First time for everything.

847badgerfan

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #26 on: September 07, 2018, 04:47:44 PM »
 :sign0144:
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weekend Reflections
« Reply #27 on: September 07, 2018, 05:23:28 PM »
I don't disagree, but I think "helmet" gets tossed around too often and often it's in the place of "all available evidence".  
Take 2011, where many thought Oklahoma State should get a shot because Alabama already had theirs.  But in every single possible metric, from schedule to recruiting stars to waterboy salaries to potential draft picks to the Dunkel Index to the eye test to blah blah blah, Alabama was the better team.  But someone merely not wanting to watch a rematch could just claim "helmet" and go on about their business.
It's about access. 

That year, OkSU beat 4 ranked teams. Alabama beat 4 ranked teams. Well, 5 if you count that Georgia Southern was ranked 3 in FCS in week 11... 
OkSU played 9 conference games. Alabama played 8.
OkSU played 1 P5 OOC. Alabama played 1 P5 OOC and 1 FCS OOC.
Alabama lost to #1 LSU. OkSU lost to unranked Iowa State.
Now, it's very likely Alabama was the "best team in the country". But it's not like their resume was overwhelmingly better than OkSU's. And yeah, OkSU had a letdown game in week 11 against Iowa State. But Alabama was playing an FCS team that week, so it's not like they were "challenging" themselves. It's not like people thought Iowa State was actually better than OkSU. 
The argument there wasn't helmet. The argument was that Alabama already had their chance. They'd had their chance to prove they were better than LSU, on the field, and came up short. Seems like it would be better to let another team--a team that LSU hadn't already beaten--get a crack. 

Quote
And no, I do not want the 7th or 8th-best team in the country crowned the national champion.  

Say what you want about the historic 'mythical' national champion...they were never 8th-best in the country.

I'm not worried if the champion is the "best" team in the country. I want it to be the team that earned the championship.
If in the NCAA tournament, a 16-seed goes on a tear through the field and wins it all, I'm not going to call them the "best team in the country". I'll still call them the national champions though.

 

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