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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8316 on: July 12, 2023, 11:39:59 AM »
Here's your what about-ism.  What about water vapor?  What about this other random thing? 

Hey OAM get a hobby cause youre not a very good conversationalist

you add absolutely nothing to this topic
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8317 on: July 12, 2023, 11:40:57 AM »
Hey OAM get a hobby cause youre not a very good conversationalist

you add absolutely nothing to this topic
nothing > misinformation
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8318 on: July 12, 2023, 11:43:07 AM »
nothing > misinformation
when does school start

cant wait
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Gigem

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8319 on: July 12, 2023, 11:44:36 AM »
Water vapor is definitely a GHG, but it’s just part of the equation and we can’t really change that knob. 

Methane is a quite effective GHG, much more than CO2. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8320 on: July 12, 2023, 11:45:27 AM »
Asking a questions can't be somehow "misinformation", perhaps with rare exceptions where it's a loaded question.

"We" can discuss the ins and outs of climate change without the ad hominem, one might hope.

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8321 on: July 12, 2023, 11:53:46 AM »
Water vapor is definitely a GHG, but it’s just part of the equation and we can’t really change that knob.

why couldn't we change it?
I've been hearing about a water shortage for decades
if more ice melts, isn't there a change there will be more water vapor ?
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8322 on: July 12, 2023, 11:57:13 AM »
Asking a questions can't be somehow "misinformation", perhaps with rare exceptions where it's a loaded question.

"We" can discuss the ins and outs of climate change without the ad hominem, one might hope.
Yes, but 320 has been asking the same "questions" for months and not bothering to do any reading or study that might conflict with his assertion that '120 ppm is a really small number and I just feel it isn't big enough to matter.'

I wouldn't call it "misinformation", I would call it "participating in a debate subject in bad faith." 

I.e. months back when you and I had a discussion about EV battery charging rates (i.e. would smaller/larger packs charge faster), I knew you were making a good faith effort to understand what I was saying, and I was not doing a great job of explaining it, but eventually we found common ground. 

I don't see that in this case. One side is presenting evidence. The other is beholden to "feelings" and isn't even engaging the evidence. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8323 on: July 12, 2023, 12:00:51 PM »
Asking a questions can't be somehow "misinformation", perhaps with rare exceptions where it's a loaded question.

"We" can discuss the ins and outs of climate change without the ad hominem, one might hope.
FFS
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8324 on: July 12, 2023, 12:03:58 PM »
I.e. months back when you and I had a discussion about EV battery charging rates (i.e. would smaller/larger packs charge faster), I knew you were making a good faith effort to understand what I was saying, and I was not doing a great job of explaining it, but eventually we found common ground.
Actually, I think you did a fine job, I was just being obtuse.  I also think he's asking some new questions now.  The responses won't change his mind, but to me they are new questions, and I'm OK with that.  If he simply believes that an increase in CO2 levels from 280 to 420 can't have any impact, that too is OK with me.  I don't agree with it.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8325 on: July 12, 2023, 12:05:18 PM »
why couldn't we change it?
I've been hearing about a water shortage for decades
if more ice melts, isn't there a change there will be more water vapor ?
There is no such thing as a "water shortage" at the planet level. The issue we have is droughts which cause a shortage of freshwater suitable for human consumption. But the Earth has plenty of water.

And creating more water vapor via warming is likely a bad thing as it's a GHG and would result in even more warming. However there is SOME suggestion that it would create more clouds which might reflect the sun's energy. But there are other suggestions that cloud levels are at lower altitude than the CO2 which is capturing IR in the upper atmosphere, so it's possible that clouds reflecting sunlight wouldn't actually prevent that warming. It's a very complex topic, and we don't know if increased water vapor in the atmosphere would be a positive or negative feedback to warming. 

The answer to "why couldn't we change it" is that water vapor in the air is an effect, not a cause. We can't change the total amount of water on the planet. We could boil a bunch of it, turning it into vapor, but it would just rain right back down on us because we can't keep it in the atmosphere. It's a cycle. 

There is also a carbon cycle. CO2 is emitted by natural sources (respiration, decomposing plants, volcanoes) and it is taken up by natural sources (growing plants, the ocean). But CO2 is more persistent. While water vapor levels can change on the daily level, CO2 changes occur over decades or centuries. The difference is that we have been emitting enough CO2 to overcome the Earth's ability to sink that carbon into new plants or the oceans, at least on a time scale of importance to human interests. Hence per Gigem it is actually a knob that we can turn. We've increased atmospheric CO2 (and methane) due to human activity, and it's something that we could reduce if we determined it was important enough.

Meaningfully, we have no knob to turn on water vapor. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8326 on: July 12, 2023, 12:24:26 PM »
This is how what about-ism works.
Sidetrack the conversation so that the prudent people wind up talking about water vapor.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8327 on: July 12, 2023, 12:28:00 PM »
Yes, but 320 has been asking the same "questions" for months and not bothering to do any reading or study that might conflict with his assertion that '120 ppm is a really small number and I just feel it isn't big enough to matter.'

I wouldn't call it "misinformation", I would call it "participating in a debate subject in bad faith."

I.e. months back when you and I had a discussion about EV battery charging rates (i.e. would smaller/larger packs charge faster), I knew you were making a good faith effort to understand what I was saying, and I was not doing a great job of explaining it, but eventually we found common ground.

I don't see that in this case. One side is presenting evidence. The other is beholden to "feelings" and isn't even engaging the evidence.
whats bad faith

as I previously said this is not the hill I want to die on

so if you find my questions not in good faith just dont interject anything in response to my posts

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me but you obviously have a big problem because we dont see eye to eye

so just look the other way when I post please feel free to believe what you want and I will do the same
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8328 on: July 12, 2023, 12:29:01 PM »
This is how what about-ism works.
Sidetrack the conversation so that the prudent people wind up talking about water vapor. 

Do you think water vapor has no place in this discussion?

I personally think it's an interesting factor.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #8329 on: July 12, 2023, 12:29:37 PM »
Do you think water vapor has no place in this discussion?

I personally think it's an interesting factor.
I couldn't care less what you think.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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