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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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Cincydawg

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7687 on: May 30, 2023, 12:11:29 PM »
there are hundreds of sources of primary research
which shall I trust?
This Judith Curry person seems reasonable, but should I trust her?
It's obviously very complex and the best sources will admit that they really aren't certain about their projections
I have this issue and I know that politicians struggle with whom to trust.
It's a really hard thing to say. You could write a book on it. In fact, I've kinda thought about writing a book called "The Internet Polymath" all about using the internet to rapidly accelerate the learning curve of nearly any discipline. And a good portion of it will be written about how to evaluate online communities and sources, how to identify trustworthy places vs red flags to be avoided, etc. 

I'd say there are a lot of things to consider:

  • First and foremost, cast your net widely. Do not limit yourself to one "side" or the other. Confirmation bias is dangerous, and when you're learning about what the "other" side believes from your own, you know you're getting a distorted view. 
  • When reading the "other" side, read their *best* and most credible sources, not their hacks. It's easy to form a poor opinion of a position if you're only reading the worst sources. 
  • Look closely for flaws in someone's evidence, someone's reasoning, etc. Again with confirmation bias, don't look for flaws in the "other" position but uncritically accept what your own "side" says. With confirmation bias, I actually advise to try to be MORE critical of your own side, because your brain naturally wants to be critical of the other side and not your own. So you have to work at it. 
  • Be wary of anyone who is too sure of themselves. In anything scientific, those who sound the most definitively sure about anything are typically trying to sell you a position, not trying to search for truth. Only Sith deal in absolutes.
  • The corollary to that is try to read the people that give the opposing side the most fair treatment, that takes their strongest arguments and try to rebut them with reasoning and argument, not dismissive rhetoric. The little I've read of Judith Curry, I think she does this. However per #1, you should also read the sources critiquing Curry's work, to get both sides. 
  • Credibility is hard to earn, but easy to lose. For example in 320's latest link, the source is one that would be hard to give credibility w/o study. However with two basic claims (that humans are only responsible for 4% of the CO2 in the atmosphere, and that current CO2 levels are high b/c of the medieval warm period), the guy basically shot himself in the foot. I've studied this enough to know that the first claim is BS. And although the claim of lag between temp and CO2 is there, there's no logical way to explain why a very slightly warmer period hundreds of years ago could be the cause of the massively high (410 ppm) CO2 levels we see today. 295 ppm? Sure. 410? No logical way to square that circle. 
  • Use your gut. If someone sounds like they're full of shit, they probably are. 

Finally... You shouldn't "trust" anyone. That's the point of "Never allow anything to pass the verdict of your own mind." The minute you trust a source, and stop looking at what they say with a critical eye, you're ceding control of your own beliefs to someone else. That's something you should never do.  


---------------------

Now, this is all hard work. And at the end of the day, when it comes to something like global CO2 emissions and climate change, you or I as individuals basically make just about zero difference at all. There's a thing called "rational ignorance" where the ability to affect something simply isn't worth taking the time to learn it. Regardless of anything about CO2 emissions, even if I convince you and 320 of everything I say, the world is going to either succeed or fail regardless of anything we type here. So if all this critical thought seems like it's not worth it? It probably isn't, to be honest. It's pretty much intellectual underwater basket-weaving, and little more. 

However, I'd say that if you want to actually discuss these things in an online forum such as this, the above list should be the "table stakes" that you're expected to bring. 

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7688 on: May 30, 2023, 12:46:53 PM »
very good

I cast a wide net.  usually here
I'm very wary of anyone who is too sure of themselves. (most are)

hard work and the end of the day - this is me..... too much work for too little gain
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7689 on: May 30, 2023, 01:03:38 PM »
I am absolutely 100% CERTAIN some folks are too sure of themselves ...

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7690 on: May 30, 2023, 01:39:38 PM »
I've often encountered opinion pieces that seem well written and authoritative, and then looked for rebuttals, and found them.  I'd say USUALLY the rebuddle makes it clear what was omitted or exaggerated or mischaracterized in the first piece.  Sometimes of course the rebuttal is not well done.  I also look at "grammer/speling" errors as one indication a piece might be amateurish (my fav is "your an idiot"...).  Another sign is the old ad hominem attack.

And there is posting "data" in some form with no attribution, a graph with no clearly labeled axes, something with a citation that is incorrect, etc.  I can usually tell when something is well written though that is not a complete assuredness it is accurate of course, but if it's poorly written, it very likely is botched analysis.  And then I look for whether anyone has rebutted the rebuttal.


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7691 on: May 30, 2023, 03:38:42 PM »
The earth has warmed.

But:

We don't really know why.  our influence + the natural ebb & flow

But:

We have to do something.  we could just shrug and ignore it, like a certain 40% of the pop. tribe wants us to

But:

We don't know what to do.  we know exactly what to do to, it's just a massive undertaking

But:

Print Money.


Rinse and repeat.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7692 on: May 30, 2023, 03:43:09 PM »
We might know what to do in the broadest of strokes, but we do NOT know how to get there in any practicable pathway.  That is why there is no real plan, anywhere.  There is just pie in the sky, throw money at it, wind and solar ... more wind and solar.

It's NOT going to happen even partially to the degree needed.  It's pretty simple math.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7693 on: May 30, 2023, 04:08:38 PM »
We might know what to do in the broadest of strokes, but we do NOT know how to get there in any practicable pathway.  
Well, the issue that we have is that we have only established, scientifically, a few things:

  • CO2 is a greenhouse gas
  • Higher levels of atmospheric CO2 will cause warming
  • Man is dramatically increasing atmospheric CO2 by burning fossil fuels
  • The Earth is warming
  • A significant portion of that warming is due to man

But there are a lot of other questions:

  • Is warming bad? 
  • If yes, how bad? 
  • What are the negative economic effects of letting warming continue? Are there positive economic effects?
  • What are the negative economic effects of trying to massively remake our energy infrastructure to stop emitting now?  
  • Which economic effects are worse?
  • Are there catastrophic effects that massively outweigh the economic calculation above and mean warming MUST be curtailed?

Those are the questions that are a hell of a lot harder to answer. And they're really not questions that mostly are even addressed by climate scientists (except potentially the first and last ones). Because just as economists aren't well versed in climate science, climate scientists aren't well versed in economics. 

We know that we're warming the planet. We know why. We know how to stop it, although it's not economically practicable. 

But has anyone even done the cost/benefit analysis? Would the world be better or worse off if Florida was under a few meters of water but giant land masses in Canada and Siberia were transformed into verdant productive farmland? Absent catastrophic outcomes, should we even be trying to stop warming? 


847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7694 on: May 30, 2023, 04:29:07 PM »
The earth has warmed.

But:

We don't really know why.  our influence + the natural ebb & flow How much of each? We don't know.

But:

We have to do something.  we could just shrug and ignore it, like a certain 40% of the pop. tribe wants us to What should we do? Going green takes a shit-ton (not metric ton) of energy in itself.

But:

We don't know what to do.  we know exactly what to do to, it's just a massive undertaking "Exactly" what is this that we know "exactly" about?

But:

Print Money. Guaranteed.


Rinse and repeat. Guaranteed.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7695 on: May 30, 2023, 04:42:22 PM »
It's too early for this.

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FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7696 on: May 30, 2023, 04:45:33 PM »
you might want to move to Texas
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7697 on: May 30, 2023, 04:46:12 PM »
That's where the next one will go.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7698 on: May 30, 2023, 04:49:43 PM »
It's too early for this.

Maybe I'm just not parsing your statement, but what do you mean by "It's too early for this."?


847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7699 on: May 30, 2023, 04:51:08 PM »
Maybe I'm just not parsing your statement, but what do you mean by "It's too early for this."?


September/October is the teeth of the tropical storm season. Runs from June 1 through November.
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