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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7518 on: April 27, 2023, 11:41:55 AM »
so, if & when this happens....... it displaces people, but is that such a big deal???

yes, it's expensive, but so is 37 trillion a year to combat climate change
Largely depends how gradually it happens. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7519 on: April 27, 2023, 11:45:18 AM »
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/apr/05/ice-sheets-collapse-far-faster-than-feared-study-climate-crisis


Quote
“Our research provides a warning from the past about the speeds that ice sheets are physically capable of retreating at,” said Dr Christine Batchelor at Newcastle University in the UK, who led the research. “It shows that pulses of rapid retreat can be far quicker than anything we’ve seen so far.”

“These pulses translate into sea level rise and could be really important for sea defences,” she said. The rate of loss was critical if, for example, a rise expected over 200 years could actually occur in 20 years, Batchelor said. The research could also be used to enable computer models to make better predictions about future ice loss.

Most previous estimates of the rate of ice sheet collapse have come from satellite data, which has been collected for about 50 years. The geological data used in the study stretches back thousands of years, allowing a much greater range of conditions to be analysed.

The research, published in the journal Nature, used high-resolution mapping of the sea bed off Norway, where large ice sheets collapsed into the sea at the end of the last ice age 20,000 years ago. The scientists focused on sets of small ridges parallel to the coast, which formed at the line where the base of the ice sheet met the oceans, called the grounding line.

As the tides lifted the ice sheets up and down, sediments at the grounding line were squashed into ridges twice a day. As the base of the ice sheet melted over days and weeks, the grounding line retreated towards the shore, leaving behind sets of parallel ridges. Measuring the distance between the ridges enabled the scientists to calculate the speed of the Norwegian ice sheet collapse.


They found speeds of between 50 metres a day and 600 metres a day. That is up to 20 times faster than the speediest retreat recorded previously by satellites, of 30 metres a day at the Pope Glacier in West Antarctica. Ridges had been studied before, in Antarctica, but only over an area of 10 sq km. The new study covered an area of 30,000 sq km, and 7,600 ridges, allowing the scientists to understand what is likely to control the rates of retreat.


utee94

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7520 on: April 27, 2023, 11:48:04 AM »
I'm looking forward to my ocean front property in Austin, Texas.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7521 on: April 27, 2023, 11:55:22 AM »
I'm looking forward to my ocean front property in Austin, Texas.
Gonna be hard to stem the flow of people moving to Austin, tho. 

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7522 on: April 27, 2023, 11:59:39 AM »
warnings from the past weren't events caused by manmade CO2
Probably not 1.5C differences

sea level changes seem to be gradual enough that folks won't be drowning like a Tsunami 
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longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7523 on: April 27, 2023, 12:08:09 PM »
After the 1900 storm which killed over 5,000 people the city of Galveston raised its above sea level between 8 and 28 feet for about 500 square blocks and also built a seawall

Many folks dont realize that when they look at an old Galveston building the 1st floor was really the 2nd floor.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7524 on: April 27, 2023, 12:12:30 PM »
After the 1900 storm which killed over 5,000 people the city of Galveston raised its above sea level between 8 and 28 feet for about 500 square blocks and also built a seawall

Many folks dont realize that when they look at an old Galveston building the 1st floor was really the 2nd floor.
Sounds like Seattle.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7525 on: April 27, 2023, 12:20:56 PM »
warnings from the past weren't events caused by manmade CO2
Probably not 1.5C differences

sea level changes seem to be gradual enough that folks won't be drowning like a Tsunami
Agreed that past events weren't caused by manmade emissions of CO2. Obviously. 

Past temperature swings were FAR beyond 1.5C tho. During ice ages global temps were colder by much more than 1.5C. During the Pliocene Epoch (~4M years ago, the last time CO2 was at/above 400 ppm) it's believed global temps were far more than 1.5C higher than today, and sea levels were 15-25m higher than today. 

And a lot of things seem gradual, until they don't. 

Hence my thought that we need to be thinking of best case scenarios and also considering worst case scenarios. If it's inevitable that the West Antarctic ice sheet will collapse, but it takes the 200+ years that we currently think it'll take, I'm not worried. If we're wrong and it happens over the course of 20 years, we're talking about massive dislocations of people that will disrupt much of our way of life to absorb. 

I.e. Badge's great-great-great-grandkids not being able to live in Florida because it no longer exists might be sad. But if Badge's house is underwater in the next 20 years, and it's a 100% economic loss to Badge and his wife because he can't sell an asset that's literally, not economically, underwater? I think he'd consider that a catastrophe. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7526 on: April 27, 2023, 12:23:28 PM »
Meh. The house will be paid for soon. 

I consider it a sunk cost.
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FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7527 on: April 27, 2023, 12:29:12 PM »
20 years would REALLY surprise me and 95% of the "experts"

only the fringe looney 4.5% of "experts" crying the sky is falling wouldn't be shocked

100 years would surprise me
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7528 on: April 27, 2023, 12:29:24 PM »
Sea level changes of a foot or two over 80 years sounds pretty gradual to me.  I appreciate one can add this to typical storm surge and high tides of course.  The dramatic folks in Hollywood feature these ridiculous movies that are completely off the beam of course.

For me, the deeper reality is simply that we cannot practically stop this increase IF the models are roughly correct.  We might reduce 24 inches to 22 inches with a lot of money spent on green whatever.  Yay.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7529 on: April 27, 2023, 01:10:59 PM »
20 years would REALLY surprise me and 95% of the "experts"

only the fringe looney 4.5% of "experts" crying the sky is falling wouldn't be shocked

100 years would surprise me
Agreed. 20 years would be absolutely shocking. 100 years is faster than current predictions and would surprise me less, but only because I expect us to keep emitting CO2 and not achieve our targets, the Earth to warm more to levels above the Paris targets, so the idea of acceleration beyond current rates makes sense. 

That said, the reason we refer to black swan events that nobody is predicting as black swans is because they're rare--but also because they exist and happen. 

"That's really unlikely to happen" is something that our brain filters into "there's NO WAY that could even happen."

And we all recall what a "NO WAY" prediction means, right? :57:

utee94

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7530 on: April 27, 2023, 04:16:10 PM »
I personally view the range of probable outcomes as a Gaussian distribution.  There's the center, and the midranges, and the tails.

The tails are unlikely but still possible. It's just math.

« Last Edit: April 27, 2023, 04:39:08 PM by utee94 »

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7531 on: April 27, 2023, 05:21:28 PM »
That sounds normal…

 

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