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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7350 on: April 18, 2023, 10:39:48 AM »
one poster or one congressman? 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7351 on: April 18, 2023, 10:42:02 AM »
Not many in Congress could spell out a simple paragraph about any of this.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7352 on: April 18, 2023, 10:44:28 AM »
I don't think anyone here has suggested this.
No. But 320 is questioning the basic validity of the science as to whether CO2 and methane as understood being greenhouse gases has every actually been shown.

So I wanted to highlight there is a LONG history of science on greenhouse gases and it is well established enough--and done over such a long time period--that the basic science showing the greenhouse effect of CO2 should be seen as free of politicization. 

That there's been TONS of politicization of it is absolutely true. And I think there is a ton of valid debate there about not only how much warming there will be, or whether there are negative feedback loops that may mitigate it. There's debate whether that warming is actually harmful or not. If harmful, there's debate whether it's more harmful than the negative economic effects of trying to mitigate it now. And even then, there is a bunch of political hypocrisy where it seems that the efforts to combat it are "restrictions on thee, but not on me", by our "betters". 

But when responding directly to 320 here, we need to come to agreement (or not) on the basic science, and I'm trying to highlight that the basic science of CO2 as a greenhouse gas warming the planet is really not something that anyone serious in this game is bothering to debate. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7353 on: April 18, 2023, 10:46:41 AM »
The Earth is one kind of big "box" with incident solar radiation which is known and a global temperature (which is sort of known).  It's pretty easy to calculate how the temperature would change if we had no CO2.  And one can look at Venus as an example of a runaway GH effect, and Mars as another example where very little incident heat is retained.

I take is as a fact that CO2 is a greenhouse gas.  I take is as a fact that the levels have risen over the past 100 years or so from about 280 to over 410 ppm.  I take it as fact this is due to burning a lot of fossil fuels.  I take as fact this COULD impact our climate. 

I am less certain that our climate models are precise enough to be relied upon.  Quite a bit less certain.


MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7354 on: April 18, 2023, 10:47:04 AM »
Got use to a week of 60/70 deg now a blustery 36 sporadic snow/sleet,cloudy,damp - throw another witch on the fire brrr.🥶
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7355 on: April 18, 2023, 10:51:03 AM »
EVERY "F"ing thing has been
COVID, Global Warming, Race issues, Education, Employment, immigration, election fraud

When's the last time the two sides agreed on something?

no to term limits, yes to higher taxes, yes to printing money, yes to growing the budget

great! ;)
To me, calling them sides only has to do with the R or D after their name.

They are on the same side in reality. Mission? Keep power and control. 

With few exceptions, they are all FoS.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7356 on: April 18, 2023, 10:52:56 AM »
The two sides do agree they want to be reelected.

847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7357 on: April 18, 2023, 10:55:09 AM »
No. But 320 is questioning the basic validity of the science as to whether CO2 and methane as understood being greenhouse gases has every actually been shown.

So I wanted to highlight there is a LONG history of science on greenhouse gases and it is well established enough--and done over such a long time period--that the basic science showing the greenhouse effect of CO2 should be seen as free of politicization.

That there's been TONS of politicization of it is absolutely true. And I think there is a ton of valid debate there about not only how much warming there will be, or whether there are negative feedback loops that may mitigate it. There's debate whether that warming is actually harmful or not. If harmful, there's debate whether it's more harmful than the negative economic effects of trying to mitigate it now. And even then, there is a bunch of political hypocrisy where it seems that the efforts to combat it are "restrictions on thee, but not on me", by our "betters".

But when responding directly to 320 here, we need to come to agreement (or not) on the basic science, and I'm trying to highlight that the basic science of CO2 as a greenhouse gas warming the planet is really not something that anyone serious in this game is bothering to debate.
1. Yep, and it's a fair debate. An analogy: Do you let the cure (prolonged lockdowns) become worse than the disease (Covid)?

2. I don't think any of us fly around on private jets to attend climate meetings.
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7358 on: April 18, 2023, 11:03:24 AM »
We're all for cleaner air and water.  We may disagree about how to get it of course, and how much to pay for it.

I would like to "sunset" coal for electricity in the US, ideally with nuclear.  If W&S can help, great, but we have to have reliable base load power.

longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7359 on: April 18, 2023, 11:18:36 AM »
I dont question the fact that co2 is a greenhouse gas 

Im questioning whether or not the very small amount by comparison man made co2 is the cause of global warming
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7360 on: April 18, 2023, 11:36:17 AM »
I dont question the fact that co2 is a greenhouse gas

Im questioning whether or not the very small amount by comparison man made co2 is the cause of global warming
But the problem is that you keep harping on this "4%" thing. And BTW I think you're actually misinterpreting this entirely by saying man-made CO2 is only 4% of the CO2 in the atmosphere, when the reality is that man-made CO2 is actually about 4 (potentially 5%) of annual emissions.

But it's actually WAY more complicated than that, due to the carbon cycle. Because there are natural emissions and natural sinks of carbon, these things go in a cycle. However, we DO have the ability to determine somewhat the source of carbon based on the ratio between C12, C13, and C14 isotopes of carbon in the atmosphere as the ratio. And this is what we see.

https://skepticalscience.com/print.php?r=384


Quote
Isotopic Signature Shows Increased Fossil Fuels Emissions in Atmosphere

Isotopic evidence points to fossil fuels as the source of CO2 emissions. Carbon is composed of three different isotopes: carbon-12, 13, and 14.  Carbon-12 is by far the most common, while carbon-13 is about 1% of the total, and carbon-14 accounts for only about 1 in 1 trillion carbon atoms in the atmosphere.

CO2 produced from burning fossil fuels or burning forests has a different isotopic composition than CO2 in the atmosphere. This is because plants have a preference for the lighter isotope (carbon-12); thus they have lower carbon-13 to 12 ratios. Since fossil fuels are ultimately derived from ancient plants, plants and fossil fuels all have roughly the same carbon-13 to 12 ratio – about 2% lower than that of the atmosphere. As CO2 from these materials is released into, and mixes with, the atmosphere, the average carbon-13 to 12 ratio of the atmosphere decreases.

Reconstructions of atmospheric carbon isotope ratios from various proxies, such as tree rings and ice cores, have determined that the carbon-13 to 12 ratios in the atmosphere are the lowest today than they’ve been in the last 10,000 years. Furthermore, the carbon-13 to 12 ratios begin to decline dramatically just as the CO2 starts to increase — around 1850 AD. This is exactly what we expect if the increased CO2 is in fact due to fossil fuel burning beginning in the Industrial Revolution. These isotopic observations confirm that the increase in atmospheric CO2 comes from plant-based carbon, not from the oceans or volcanoes. 





How can this be, if human activity is only 4-5% of annual emissions? 

I tried to explain via diet. If you weigh a certain amount, and your body is in equilibrium, with 2500 calories consumed each day and 2500 calories burned, you'll remain at a steady weight. But if each day you add ONE light beer--a Mich Ultra at 96 calories--without changing anything else and assuming no metabolic changes, you'll gain 100 lbs over 10 years. In actuality, this won't be true--metabolism does adjust and the energy spent digesting that beer will be somewhere between 0 and 96 calories. And as you start gaining weight your metabolism will increase from daily energy expenditure of being bigger. So you'll actually end up putting on weight, but probably not as much as predicted by the math. 

We see the same thing in climate. The Earth was in equilibrium between the amount of natural CO2 emitted and the amount that it was able to sink every year. Predictably (based on the fact that long term climate stability) there was an additional amount of CO2 that the earth could sink. This was covered in an earlier post. Natural emissions are about 120 gigatons of CO2, and based on what we've seen over the last 100+ years of burning carbon, about 122 gigatons can be taken up by the earth. Unfortunately, we're burning an additional 7 gigatons (for 127 GT total), and thus the actual atmospheric carbon is rising because the earth can't absorb it. It's only 4-5% of the annual total, but because it exceeds the earth's capability to sink, it has nowhere to go but stay in the atmosphere. 

It can be explained via picture:



The pipe at the bottom is only so big. We'll call it having a maximum capability flow rate of 122 gallons per minute. At 120 gpm emissions, the water pressure stays low enough that only 120 gpm flows out. At 122 gpm, the water pressure increases but can remain in equilibrium so the water level stays constant (at a slightly higher level). 

But if you increase the inflow to 127 gpm, then the water level just keeps rising, and rising, and rising. Now, if you do that ONE time, for ONE minute, and then it drops back to 120 gpm, the tub will eventually return to equilibrium. But if you just keep the inflow at 127 gpm in perpetuity, eventually the tub overflows. 

A 4% increase in annual emissions is enough to overwhelm the system. 

longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7361 on: April 18, 2023, 12:10:32 PM »
How do we know what the true balance is

We are assuming that the earth is in balance cause thats where we were before man
How do we know the earth cant increase this balance to accommodate a very small amount of additional co2

again in my example if total atmosphere volume equals 10,000 units

total co2 would be 40 units

Man made co2 would be 1.6 units

we are saying 1.6 units out of 10,000 is just too much and a surplus will build up

We are just assuming cause I dont think we really know

we look at what has happened in the last 150 years and design our models based on that 

The earth has existed for 4.5 billion years and the co2 amount has gone up and gone down

do we know why

I dont think so
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

longhorn320

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7362 on: April 18, 2023, 12:19:58 PM »


I tried to explain via diet. If you weigh a certain amount, and your body is in equilibrium, with 2500 calories consumed each day and 2500 calories burned, you'll remain at a steady weight. But if each day you add ONE light beer--a Mich Ultra at 96 calories--without changing anything else and assuming no metabolic changes, you'll gain 100 lbs over 10 years. In actuality, this won't be true--metabolism does adjust and the energy spent digesting that beer will be somewhere between 0 and 96 calories. And as you start gaining weight your metabolism will increase from daily energy expenditure of being bigger. So you'll actually end up putting on weight, but probably not as much as predicted by the math.





here again you make assumption that the person cant adjust this balance and thats wrong

this person could increase their exercise activity and accommodate the additional calories

we dont know everything there is to know about nature and the accommodations it makes
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

FearlessF

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Re: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy
« Reply #7363 on: April 18, 2023, 12:37:15 PM »
If I'm not careful, I'm going to learn something
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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