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Topic: Weather, Climate, Environment, and Energy

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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2114 on: April 08, 2020, 08:59:57 AM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 08, 2020, 06:45:53 AM
Yeah, we're going from AC to heat and back.  I'd ride it out but the wife is finnicky.
We've been trying to ride it out, but man, this radiant heat thing is real. In the winter, our air handler never goes on if the temp is above 10F.

It got to be 79 in the condo yesterday. I almost turned the AC on, but refrained.

They turn off the radiant heat on 4/15.
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2115 on: April 08, 2020, 02:08:34 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 08, 2020, 08:47:10 AM
https://www.space.com/denman-glacier-retreat-worlds-deepest-canyon.html?fbclid=IwAR3w-nCCV-KPr2x_SxgbtNkPbT_-XibmnI5ASC_43X5IHLH8hCNxiw_Q8No

Denman Glacier's western flank flows over the deepest known land canyon on Earth, plunging at least 11,000 feet (3,500 meters) below sea level. Right now, that canyon (known as the Denman trough) is mostly cut off from the sea thanks to all the glacial ice piled inside and atop the ravine. However, as the glacier's edge continues to retreat farther and farther down the slope, warm ocean water will pour into the canyon, battering bigger and bigger sections of the glacier and gradually turning the Denman trough into a giant bowl of meltwater with nowhere else to go.
When a glacier retreats, its foot moves upslope.  Is there something special about this glacier that makes it work the other way?
If the Denman Trough fills with water, will it affect sea levels measurably?
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2116 on: April 08, 2020, 02:17:49 PM »
The trench is filled with ice, but obviously the glacier is well above the top of the trench.  If the trench is filled with sea water below the glacier, the rest of the glacier could melt much faster and the excess would be additional sea water load.

I didn't know of a trench this deep on land before.
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2117 on: April 08, 2020, 03:52:01 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 08, 2020, 02:17:49 PM
The trench is filled with ice, but obviously the glacier is well above the top of the trench.  If the trench is filled with sea water below the glacier, the rest of the glacier could melt much faster and the excess would be additional sea water load.

I didn't know of a trench this deep on land before.
Does the fact that water is denser than ice come into play?
Yeah, I had never heard of a land trench that deep.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2118 on: April 08, 2020, 04:05:43 PM »
Not much except ice floats, usually.
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MrNubbz

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2119 on: April 08, 2020, 06:20:18 PM »
74 right now tomorrow nite down to 38 and maybe snow
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2120 on: April 08, 2020, 06:26:42 PM »
Quote from: CWSooner on April 08, 2020, 03:52:01 PM
Does the fact that water is denser than ice come into play?
It is a factor in that ice floats (usually) and warmer water can get underneath an ice sheet and provide enough heat to melt the ice.  In this case, I believe the ice serves as a kind of dam so water can't get into the trench from the ocean, but it that dam melts, water could get there and accelerate the melting.  
.

Ice made from deuterium oxide does not float.
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2121 on: April 08, 2020, 06:32:11 PM »
What I was thinking was that a trench filled with liquid water would contain more "water" than the same trench filled with solid matter.

It's a good thing that H2O's liquid state is denser than its solid state.  And interesting in that no other (virtually no other?) element acts that way.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2122 on: April 08, 2020, 06:40:18 PM »
Quote from: Cincydawg on April 08, 2020, 06:26:42 PM
Ice made from deuterium oxide does not float.
Really? That's interesting... I'd never heard that before.

I know H20 basically floats as ice because it forms a specific crystalline structure that makes it less dense than the liquid form.

Does deuterium oxide not float because it doesn't form that structure? I can't imagine that the weight of the extra proton is enough to cause it to sink if it still forms that crystalline structure...
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2123 on: April 08, 2020, 06:43:49 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on April 08, 2020, 06:40:18 PM
Really? That's interesting... I'd never heard that before.

I know H20 basically floats as ice because it forms a specific crystalline structure that makes it less dense than the liquid form.

Does deuterium oxide not float because it doesn't form that structure? I can't imagine that the weight of the extra proton is enough to cause it to sink if it still forms that crystalline structure...
F U for making "remember" the crystalline matter portion of the damn E.I.T. exam.

Bastage.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2124 on: April 08, 2020, 06:55:26 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on April 08, 2020, 06:43:49 PM
F U for making "remember" the crystalline matter portion of the damn E.I.T. exam.

Bastage.
I've often* wondered if life would have formed if water became more dense when it froze, as most elements do... 

The cold temps and pressure of the deep ocean would lead to the bottom of the ocean being water frozen solid... What would that have done to the ocean floor where we tend to believe life first formed? 

It seems like a little thing, but water is so critical to life and it might be that this specific property of water is itself one of the most meaningful properties that it could have--and most other elements don't share it...

* Often as in this is a thought that has crossed my mind WAY too many times because I'm a nerd.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2125 on: April 08, 2020, 06:56:41 PM »
Nerd Bastage. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2126 on: April 08, 2020, 08:06:32 PM »
D2O has different bond angles relative to H2O, basically, and it forms a crystalline structure less dense than liquid H2O.

D2O also doesn't hydrogen bond as tightly.  It also is toxic (in high doses) because of the secondary isotope effect which I won't bore you with.

If regular water was dense than ice, we probably would not have life on the planet.  Oceans would freeze from the bottom up and kill everything in it.  The water deep in the ocean gets to 4°C because that is the densest point for H2O.
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CWSooner

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Re: Weather, Climate, and Environment
« Reply #2127 on: April 08, 2020, 08:35:53 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on April 08, 2020, 06:55:26 PM
I've often* wondered if life would have formed if water became more dense when it froze, as most elements do...

The cold temps and pressure of the deep ocean would lead to the bottom of the ocean being water frozen solid... What would that have done to the ocean floor where we tend to believe life first formed?

It seems like a little thing, but water is so critical to life and it might be that this specific property of water is itself one of the most meaningful properties that it could have--and most other elements don't share it...

* Often as in this is a thought that has crossed my mind WAY too many times because I'm a nerd.
It's a huge thing, as you say.
It's why I said upthread that we are lucky.  It's difficult to imagine how life would have formed, and how different it might have been, had the ice sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
I too am a nerd.
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