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Topic: Top 25

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RestingB!tchFace

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #182 on: November 11, 2019, 08:34:40 PM »
In the 3 weeks prior to playing Minnesota, PSU played at Iowa, home against Michigan and at MSU. All grinders (MSU is not as bad as it looks).



Minnesota played at ________, home against Maryland and then idle. Not exactly grinders.



Something to think about.

PSU was idle the week before Minnesota too.  So it was home against Michigan, at MSU (not good this year), and then idle.

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #183 on: November 11, 2019, 08:43:55 PM »
 Why even have Conferences and conference championship games if they don't mean anything? 

This is obviously not the case.  Just because they don't mean everything doesn't mean they don't mean anything.  You're living on the extremes, friend.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #184 on: November 11, 2019, 08:52:49 PM »
Supporting a system that awards accomplishments on the field is a joke?  Of course not, who said this?  



Alabama lost to LSU on their own field.  If their are undefeated Power 5 teams....how can you possibly say that Alabama should get another shot at them over a team that hasn't lost a game, plays in a conference that has quality teams, and hasn't gotten a shot at the "best" team in the nation?
The keyword you used here is "should".  It's absolutely not about if Alabama SHOULD get another chance or a different team SHOULD get their first chance.  These are irrelevant aspects of the discussion.




Now THAT would be a joke.

And again....your context is filtered through a flawed system to begin with.  One that constantly assumes that SEC teams are better than everyone else.  Preseason bias is a b1tch....and it shouldn't be used as an excuse to treat other Power 5 teams like second class to the SEC teams.  Like I said.....Texas A&M is a perfect example of this.  Top 15 team to start the season.  Scraped by a horrible Arkansas team by four points and Ole Miss by seven.  Is that good?  They have five very good teams on their schedule.  So far they've proven that SEC bias by losing all three that they've played so far.
Any voter who blindly supposes an SEC team is better than a non-SEC team obviously shouldn't be a voter.  All teams should be rated and ranked based on what they've done individually.  




As for the discussion overall - name another team outside Columbus, OH that would stay within 5 points of LSU.  Oh wait, Auburn lost to them by 3.  Florida was only down 7 late.  But those are SEC teams, and you don't want to hear about that.  Just as voters should not show blind favoritism to SEC teams, nor should you show them blind disgust.  



And I'll keep typing this until my fingers fall off - crowning the national champion should be an exclusive exercise, not an inclusive one.  We had just the top 2, but then it had too much SEC in it in 2011, so we go to 4.  But now we have too much SEC in it, so we'll go to 8.  Guess what will happen?!?!?!?!  The "bias" isn't going to stop - there will be "too much SEC" when there's 8 teams, so we'll go to 16.  Then eventually, we'll crown a 3 or 4-loss "national champion" and become as irrelevant as the college basketball regular season.


Cheers!
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FearlessF

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #185 on: November 11, 2019, 08:54:26 PM »
This thread is pretty revealing.


It's not just resume.  It's not just eye test.  Why do so many people have trouble taking both into account?  It's just 2 variables!
unfortunately, the committee uses these two variables AFTER counting number of losses
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FearlessF

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #186 on: November 11, 2019, 09:03:15 PM »
As for the discussion overall - name another team outside Columbus, OH that would stay within 5 points of LSU.  

how about Texas??? - down 6 with 3:59 to play after settling for a FG
if Texas, then how about Oklahoma, TCU,??

Clemson, Wisconsin, Michigan, or Penn St??
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

RestingB!tchFace

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #187 on: November 11, 2019, 09:05:21 PM »
Any voter who blindly supposes an SEC team is better than a non-SEC team obviously shouldn't be a voter.  All teams should be rated and ranked based on what they've done individually. 




As for the discussion overall - name another team outside Columbus, OH that would stay within 5 points of LSU.  Oh wait, Auburn lost to them by 3.  Florida was only down 7 late.  But those are SEC teams, and you don't want to hear about that.  Just as voters should not show blind favoritism to SEC teams, nor should you show them blind disgust. 



And I'll keep typing this until my fingers fall off - crowning the national champion should be an exclusive exercise, not an inclusive one.  We had just the top 2, but then it had too much SEC in it in 2011, so we go to 4.  But now we have too much SEC in it, so we'll go to 8.  Guess what will happen?!?!?!?!  The "bias" isn't going to stop - there will be "too much SEC" when there's 8 teams, so we'll go to 16.  Then eventually, we'll crown a 3 or 4-loss "national champion" and become as irrelevant as the college basketball regular season.


Cheers!

Name another team outside of Ohio State that would stay within 5 points of LSU?  Auburn lost by three.  And Florida was down seven late before losing by 14?  LOL!!!  See....this is what I am talking about.  Your SEC bias is showing....and it's coming through hard.  How would we even know when almost no other team even get a shot. 

How about this.  The one non-con team with a shot this year that they played was Texas and they only beat them by seven.  Better showing than Florida.  Oops.  I guess you wouldn't want to hear about that though.  And Texas has proven to be just an okay team.  Where are they ranked these days by the way?  Where is Florida?  Hmmm....maybe the SEC is getting a little boost by mostly only playing each other and reaping the benefits of "good" losses due to the majority of the conference being ranked every season?


Cheers!


CWSooner

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #188 on: November 11, 2019, 10:56:38 PM »
I wish they would use some kind of numerical metric for ranked wins.

Like, why should I rely on the same blend of resume and a test to determine opponents quality when I could just use numbers that are predictive and forward-looking and would probably indicate the quality of opponent? Those predictive numbers recognize strength, which is what we’re really looking for in the first place.

The main downside is we are particularly bad in using rankings rather than whatever strength comes behind those rankings. The number 25 and 30 teams might be basically the same in terms of quality, but we tend to treat them very differently.
I'm not taking exception to anything you've posted there.  Just using your post as a take-off point.
Regardless of strength, or quality, or eye-test, or whatever metric other than W-L we want to use, at the end of the day, wins and losses matter.  As an example, Bama may be the strongest, highest-quality team in the country, but it lost at home to LSU.  And--if we want to get into eye test for one game--the loss was worse than the 5-point margin indicated.  In any event, there has to be a penalty for losing, whether the loss comes at the hands of a peer or to an obviously inferior team.
Speaking of Bama . . . .  Within a few hours of the LSU win, the "How Bama can still get into the CFP" stories were coming out through television and "print" media.  It's the eternal SEC narrative.  The SEC runner-up must be roughly equal to the champion of other conferences, so let's start marshaling the arguments to get that runner-up into the CFP.
And what's really interesting is how Bama has been treated relative to Clemson.  Bama's resume before its loss was roughly equal to Clemson's.  I don't think either of them had beaten a currently ranked team.  But Clemson was being dismissed for its weak schedule while Bama rough equivalence was being explained away.  (It was certainly true that Bama had a far more formidable schedule remaining than Clemson did.)  Clemson doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, even though it has won two of the last four NCs and even though it beat Bama handily in last year's NC game.  Bama's helmet is apparently more powerful than Clemson's johnny-come-lately helmet, and Nick Saban is apparently more powerful than Dabo Swinney.
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FearlessF

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #189 on: November 11, 2019, 11:02:46 PM »
because SEC > ACC
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #190 on: November 11, 2019, 11:10:37 PM »
On Texas vs Florida:
Texas lost to 4-5 TCU and has no wins over top 15 teams.  Florida's (one fewer) losses are to top 6 teams.  I don't see any issue with where the two are ranked.




On Clemson vs Alabama:
Alabama was 3rd and Clemson 5th, with Clemson having the only close call (1-point win vs UNC).  The Tide also fared better vs their only common opponent (A&M).  Again, with those 2 truths, I don't see a problem with the 2-position discrepancy.  If anyone gets similar treatment to Bama, it's Clemson.





And the LSU-Texas result fact, while true, doesn't negate my point:  who would be within a 5-point underdog to LSU today besides OSU?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #191 on: November 11, 2019, 11:10:53 PM »
because SEC > ACC
because Everyone > ACC
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

bayareabadger

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #192 on: November 11, 2019, 11:13:18 PM »


The committee's self-described task is to pick the 4 best teams.  Not the 4 best resumes.  Not the fairest method.  Not the most widely-approved selections.  The 4 best teams.
And the four best teams are whoever they say they are because their definition of "best," meaningless as it is, is the one that counts. It's logically sound.

(Picking the four "best" is mostly a bad way to do it because you allow more of the feelings in. There will always be some feelings, but ways to minimize those tend to be good)

The plus side for the "best" approach, it'll let Clemson in this year easy and leaves the door open for Boise. You can be the "best" team and just end up with a pesky HS schedule. 

MrNubbz

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #193 on: November 11, 2019, 11:18:17 PM »
Clemson doesn't get the benefit of the doubt, even though it has won two of the last four NCs and even though it beat Bama handily in last year's NC game.  Bama's helmet is apparently more powerful than Clemson's johnny-come-lately helmet, and Nick Saban is apparently more powerful than Dabo Swinney.
Ya but Bama's strongest resume builder is a loss at home with 2 weeks to prepare to a team that has allowed 38pts or more 3 times in 9 tries.Can't keep running the SEC mantra up the flag pole specially if Clemson,tOSU,LSU,Oregon,Oklahoma win out
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RestingB!tchFace

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #194 on: November 11, 2019, 11:19:07 PM »
On Texas vs Florida:
Texas lost to 4-5 TCU and has no wins over top 15 teams.  Florida's (one fewer) losses are to top 6 teams.  I don't see any issue with where the two are ranked.




On Clemson vs Alabama:
Alabama was 3rd and Clemson 5th, with Clemson having the only close call (1-point win vs UNC).  The Tide also fared better vs their only common opponent (A&M).  Again, with those 2 truths, I don't see a problem with the 2-position discrepancy.  If anyone gets similar treatment to Bama, it's Clemson.





And the LSU-Texas result fact, while true, doesn't negate my point:  who would be within a 5-point underdog to LSU today besides OSU?

I don't see why any team in the top ten....possibly top 20 couldn't potentially hang within five points of LSU on any given day.  If Texas could hang within a touchdown....absolutely.

CWSooner

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Re: Top 25
« Reply #195 on: November 11, 2019, 11:20:12 PM »
What's odd is Alabama still looked to have an edge on both LOS.  Not dominantly so as in the past couple years, so not a KO, but more in a winner-by-decision manner.  Usually I'd favor a team that wins the LOS and say if they lose, you could be looking for fluky stuff. 

I'm not at all sure that's what this was.  Alabama could play a cleaner game and they made some uncharacteristic mistakes.  But for every one you can name of theirs, I can give you at least one for LSU, so that's a wash imo.*

So putting aside the mistakes unlikely to be repeated by both teams, you have the LOS, which I thought Alabama "won."  Then you have Burrow and CEH, who didn't care.  Nothing about their seasons or performance Saturday suggested "fluke" and they were the biggest reasons LSU won.  So I don't know.  I tend to favor a team with better lines in general, but on the other hand the difference wasn't so much that some stellar skill player performance couldn't overcome it, and nothing about said performances was fluky. 

* things that probably don't happen again:
--Tua coughing the ball up unforced after a good drive, cost them 3-7 points, insert joke about Bama FG kicker here
--Stingley doesn't realize a play has started, gets burnt for long TD.  Yeah, that's not happening again
--Bama punter drops a well snapped ball for no reason
--LSU gives up a punt return TD for the first time in 12 years.  Waddle is a great returner, but that's not happening again
--LSU goes silent in the 3rd quarter as Burrow, not under pressure, misses open WRs on a couple plays.  I'm not so much saying Burrow can definitely do better than 31/39, but I am saying that's the first time all year I've seen Burrow have time, see his open guys, and flat miss on the throws, and I don't expect to see it again
--Kary Vincent gets hurt twice and after the second time, LSU really misses him in the slot.  Alabama wasn't doing much on offense in the first half, and later found success where Vincent was not.  Injuries happen, so is this repeatable?  I don't know. 
--Still not sure what was with the call on Bama's final TD, but Stingley definitely fell down.  Not sure how I feel about the chances of something like that happening again.  Alabama is good at quick, long strikes.  Stingley, while not perfect, is also good at not getting beat in that particular manner. 

Who knows.  I'm sure we'll find out as Alabama sits at home yet again while another team goes to do the dirty work against the East champion and the Tide goes to the playoffs anyway.  Assuming LSU can take care of business from here on out, of course.
I was not a playoff advocate.  I only prefer the 4-team playoff because the alternative is one with 8 teams, which would lead in time to 16.

But one of the big pro-playoff arguments was that with a playoff, who's better is settled on the field.  Except, it's not.  And, really, it wasn't with the BCS either.  Bama's regular-season loss to LSU back in 2011?  It didn't matter.  It didn't "settle it on the field" at all.  LSU had to face Bama again in the NCG.  And now all the pro-SEC media pundits (sorry, I repeat myself) are laying out the scenarios under which Bama would be the logical choice to go play LSU in the CFP, even though the issue of which team is better was supposedly settled the day before yesterday.
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