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Topic: Top 150 HCs

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #28 on: December 11, 2019, 10:38:46 PM »
Any timeline adjustment should skew pro-recent, as it's harder to dominate now.  More money, more quality HCs invested, competing with more rules in place and scholly limits, etc.
Same with all sports - bigger pool of athletes to draw from now than in the past (races, int'l players, population, etc), more cream rising to the top, the games evolving from chest-pounding to real actual efficiency.  More teams, bigger conferences, more obstacles in your way.  


A guy winning 80% of his games since 2005 >>>>>> a guy winning 80% of his games in the 50s and 60s
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #29 on: December 11, 2019, 10:45:20 PM »
You could, easily, pool these HCs into different classes for what made them so great, and each list would still be epic.  You have the high-volume guys who won a lot and forever (Bryant, Paterno, Bowden), but then you have the rascally, arrogant guys who would out-coach you on game-day (Switzer, Spurrier, Meyer).  Defensive specialists (Woody, Bo, Neyland, Saban)...system guys, with some form of option (Wilkinson, Royal, Osborne, Blaik) or big-passing game (Edwards, Spurrier, Bowden/Richt) and innovators (Camp, Heisman, Warner, Stagg), and many more.


A lot of smart men who found football to be a worthwhile exercise in willpower, motivation, and innovation.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2019, 10:48:56 PM »
All coaches get criticized for losing except in seasons when they win 'em all.

Spurrier's losses:

1990: Tennessee (9-2-2), FSU (10-2)
1991: Syracuse (10-2), Notre Dame (10-3)
1992: Tennessee (9-3), Missisippi State (7-5)
1993: FSU (11-1), Alabama (13-0)
1994: Auburn (9-1-1), FSU (tie) (10-1-1) FSU (10-1-1)
1995: Nebraska (12-0)
1996: FSU (11-1)
1997: LSU (9-3), Georgia (10-2)
1998: Tennessee (13-0), FSU (11-2)
1999: Alabama (10-3), FSU (12-0), Alabama (10-3), Michigan State (10-2)
2000: Mississippi State (8-4), FSU (11-2), Miami (11-1)
2001: Auburn (7-5), Tennessee (11-2)

Not many teams there that he "shouldn't have lost to."  A couple to mediocre Mississippi State teams.  A 7-5 Auburn team.  That's about it.  Tough having to play FSU every year when they were on a historic stretch of excellence.

Bob Stoops lost more than that to teams he shouldn't have.  Each year, as we looked at the schedule before the season started, Sooner fans wondered which unlikely team would beat us.  Lincoln Riley has continued that trend with losses to Iowa State (8-5) in 2017 and K-State (8-4) this season.  I guess I let the sins of the pupil rub off on my thinking about his mentor.
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MarqHusker

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2019, 10:59:26 PM »
One of T.O.s 49 losses was to a team that finished sub-.500  (@ Iowa St. 19-10 in '92).  Walden comes out in the wishbone and Fr. T Frazier and other youngins simply played badly.  Goal posts have never come down so fast.

Nebraska wore those all whites again.  I don't think those came out again much since then.


Goalposts come down

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CWSooner

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2019, 11:13:50 PM »
Quote from: MarqHusker on December 11, 2019, 10:59:26 PM
One of T.O.s 49 losses was to a team that finished sub-.500  (@ Iowa St. 19-10 in '92).  Walden comes out in the wishbone and Fr. T Frazier and other youngins simply played badly.  Goal posts have never come down so fast.

Nebraska wore those all whites again.  I don't think those came out again much since then.


Goalposts come down
I hate to see my team lose, especially to a mid-pack team.  But there's something about Iowa State and its fans that makes it a little bit OK.  The Cyclones are sort of like the little engine that thought it could.  That QB breaking the big run down to the 3 could have been puffing, "I think I can. I think I can. I think I can."  And I don't know of any fans who stick with their team through the many lean seasons better than ISU fans do.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2019, 11:42:00 PM »
South Carolina fans are similar - 80,000+ turn out, even when they stink.
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bayareabadger

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2019, 11:45:02 PM »
Quote from: CWSooner on December 11, 2019, 10:48:56 PM
All coaches get criticized for losing except in seasons when they win 'em all.

Spurrier's losses:

1990: Tennessee (9-2-2), FSU (10-2)
1991: Syracuse (10-2), Notre Dame (10-3)
1992: Tennessee (9-3), Missisippi State (7-5)
1993: FSU (11-1), Alabama (13-0)
1994: Auburn (9-1-1), FSU (tie) (10-1-1) FSU (10-1-1)
1995: Nebraska (12-0)
1996: FSU (11-1)
1997: LSU (9-3), Georgia (10-2)
1998: Tennessee (13-0), FSU (11-2)
1999: Alabama (10-3), FSU (12-0), Alabama (10-3), Michigan State (10-2)
2000: Mississippi State (8-4), FSU (11-2), Miami (11-1)
2001: Auburn (7-5), Tennessee (11-2)

Not many teams there that he "shouldn't have lost to."  A couple to mediocre Mississippi State teams.  A 7-5 Auburn team.  That's about it.  Tough having to play FSU every year when they were on a historic stretch of excellence.

Bob Stoops lost more than that to teams he shouldn't have.  Each year, as we looked at the schedule before the season started, Sooner fans wondered which unlikely team would beat us.  Lincoln Riley has continued that trend with losses to Iowa State (8-5) in 2017 and K-State (8-4) this season.  I guess I let the sins of the pupil rub off on my thinking about his mentor.
That’s totally fair. And I think Bob was probably a little underrated.

I put Steve as top 20 in an arbitrary list. Maybe top 15. But folks say top 10. And I think man, guy must have titles. And he had one, that he needed Joe Germaine to help deliver. Well maybe he was at a lesser program. Nope, at a place with all the talent. Well he must have been right there a bunch of times. And he kinda wasn’t.

Had a hell of a run. Was an innovator and did some special stuff at three programs. But at a place with all the talent, he went into three bowl seasons with a shot at a title, one controlling his chance to win it (one he was behind two 11-0 teams, meaning he needed three games to go right)
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bayareabadger

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2019, 11:45:50 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 11, 2019, 11:42:00 PM
South Carolina fans are similar - 80,000+ turn out, even when they stink.
Those folks are oft wondering why that passion can’t translate to more, and I don’t have the heart to tell them. 
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2019, 11:52:45 PM »
Quote from: CWSooner on December 11, 2019, 10:48:56 PM
All coaches get criticized for losing except in seasons when they win 'em all.

Spurrier's losses:

1990: Tennessee (9-2-2), FSU (10-2)
1991: Syracuse (10-2), Notre Dame (10-3)
1992: Tennessee (9-3), Missisippi State (7-5)
1993: FSU (11-1), Alabama (13-0)
1994: Auburn (9-1-1), FSU (tie) (10-1-1) FSU (10-1-1)
1995: Nebraska (12-0)
1996: FSU (11-1)
1997: LSU (9-3), Georgia (10-2)
1998: Tennessee (13-0), FSU (11-2)
1999: Alabama (10-3), FSU (12-0), Alabama (10-3), Michigan State (10-2)
2000: Mississippi State (8-4), FSU (11-2), Miami (11-1)
2001: Auburn (7-5), Tennessee (11-2)

Not many teams there that he "shouldn't have lost to."  A couple to mediocre Mississippi State teams.  A 7-5 Auburn team.  That's about it.  Tough having to play FSU every year when they were on a historic stretch of excellence.

Bob Stoops lost more than that to teams he shouldn't have.  Each year, as we looked at the schedule before the season started, Sooner fans wondered which unlikely team would beat us.  Lincoln Riley has continued that trend with losses to Iowa State (8-5) in 2017 and K-State (8-4) this season.  I guess I let the sins of the pupil rub off on my thinking about his mentor.
Thanks for doing the legwork.


Now, here's the other side of it - Spurrier's wins vs top 10 teams:
1990:  #4 Auburn (by 41 pts)
1991:  #4 Tennessee, #3 FSU
1992:  #7 Georgia
1993:  #5 Tennessee, #3 WV (by 34)
1994:  #3 Alabama
1995:  #8 Tennessee (by 25), #7 Auburn, #6 FSU
1996:  #2 Tennessee, #1 FSU (by 32)
1997:  #4 Tennessee, #6 Auburn, #2 FSU
1998:  none (beat two different #11s)
1999:  #2 Tennessee, #10 Georgia
2000:  none, but beat 5 other ranked teams
2001:  #6 Maryland (by 33)

So while Spurrier only had 2 seasons of fewer than two losses, it's not like he couldn't win big ones.  "Big Game" Bob Stoops became renowned for losing big games.  
Spurrier's combination of never losing to lesser teams and routinely beating top 10 teams probably helps his reputation.  Yes, most great coaches almost always beat the teams they should and hold their own vs top teams, but Spurrier probably has an all-time great record vs unranked teams AND played more than his fair share of top teams.






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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #37 on: December 11, 2019, 11:56:00 PM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on December 11, 2019, 11:45:02 PM


I put Steve as top 20 in an arbitrary list. Maybe top 15. But folks say top 10. And I think man, guy must have titles. And he had one, that he needed Joe Germaine to help deliver. Well maybe he was at a lesser program. Nope, at a place with all the talent. Well he must have been right there a bunch of times. And he kinda wasn’t.

Had a hell of a run. Was an innovator and did some special stuff at three programs. But at a place with all the talent, he went into three bowl seasons with a shot at a title, one controlling his chance to win it (one he was behind two 11-0 teams, meaning he needed three games to go right)
That's all fair, and I agree mostly.
You cite the talent and all, but does it sway you to know Florida had ZERO SEC championships before Spurrier showed up?  None.  83-84 kinda won it, but they were cheating.  Very pedestrian history, not much tradition, and he came in right away and had the best SEC record in year 1.  It's not the equivalent of KSU or Wisconsin's ascensions, but yeah, literally no SEC titles as a founding member from 1933.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

MrNubbz

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2019, 12:32:36 AM »
Quote from: CWSooner on December 11, 2019, 08:02:19 PM
  Bear Bryant's championships are from a different era (as are those of Wilkinson, McKay, Parseghian, et. al.),
John McKay was in my mind a great college coach, and funny too, often at our expense. :111:
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MrNubbz

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2019, 12:39:11 AM »
Not sure where Jimmy Johnson is on that list.Maybe he got dinged on duration
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CWSooner

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2019, 01:01:54 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on December 11, 2019, 11:52:45 PM
Thanks for doing the legwork.


Now, here's the other side of it - Spurrier's wins vs top 10 teams:
1990:  #4 Auburn (by 41 pts)
1991:  #4 Tennessee, #3 FSU
1992:  #7 Georgia
1993:  #5 Tennessee, #3 WV (by 34)
1994:  #3 Alabama
1995:  #8 Tennessee (by 25), #7 Auburn, #6 FSU
1996:  #2 Tennessee, #1 FSU (by 32)
1997:  #4 Tennessee, #6 Auburn, #2 FSU
1998:  none (beat two different #11s)
1999:  #2 Tennessee, #10 Georgia
2000:  none, but beat 5 other ranked teams
2001:  #6 Maryland (by 33)

So while Spurrier only had 2 seasons of fewer than two losses, it's not like he couldn't win big ones.  "Big Game" Bob Stoops became renowned for losing big games. 
Spurrier's combination of never losing to lesser teams and routinely beating top 10 teams probably helps his reputation.  Yes, most great coaches almost always beat the teams they should and hold their own vs top teams, but Spurrier probably has an all-time great record vs unranked teams AND played more than his fair share of top teams.
It's a good idea never to say "never."  I already pointed out three lesser teams that beat Spurrier's teams.  That's not many.  But it's not none either.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 150 HCs
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2019, 02:29:12 AM »
Until someone shows another HC that had fewer than ZERO losses to unranked teams in a 10-year span, I'll say 'never'.  
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier
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