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Topic: Top 100 Players at Each Position

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Mdot21

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #84 on: May 19, 2025, 03:10:26 PM »
Not Houston's Chuck Weatherspoon?  8.2 career ypc, on almost 400 carries? 

What is "best player" if not what they do?  Does an exciting 3-yard run help more than a boring 5-yard run on 3rd-and-4?
nah, but rushing for 2,850 yards and 42 touchdowns in 12 games sure as shit helps a lot. get back to me when anyone even comes remotely close to that.  

Mdot21

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #85 on: May 19, 2025, 03:17:15 PM »
sure in College he was electric.

Sanders played on artificial turf/synthetic grass which enhanched his cutting abilities even more,making him damn near untouchable at times. Eric Metcalf before his injury was damn near untouchable to.If looking just at highlight reels Sanders video stands out. Watching the games however many,many X he went 25yds and ended up where the ball was snapped. Good convo in front of a fireplace on a long winter night
a) 2,850 rushing yards and 42 rushing touchdowns in 12 games. he was a buck fifty short of 3,000 rushing yards and he ran for more touchdowns in a single 12 game season than most guys get in an entire college career. that was the greatest single season we've ever seen from any player in the history of the sport. should count for something.

b) his numbers on grass were better than his numbers on turf. just listen to some of the greatest defensive players in history talk about having to face him. they pretty much all say bar none he was the best back they ever played against. Reggie White said the only player he feared on the football field was....Barry Sanders. John Randle said bar none he was the best offensive player he ever played against and the toughest guy to tackle. Darren Woodson said he had nightmares before the game and couldn't sleep any time he was playing Barry Sanders. Rod Woodson said Barry was the best back he ever played against. Barry popped Rod Woodson's ACL and Rod Woodson never even touched him.

Mdot21

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #86 on: May 19, 2025, 03:22:38 PM »
There's no doubt Sanders had the best single season for a RB in college football history.  But those 344 carries are doing A LOT of work on his behalf.

No one would argue he had the best college career, so then it sort of becomes a sample-size thing, no? 
I know he was exciting and amazing and had all the highlight runs, but no one would teach a RB to run that way, lol.
the amount of carries doesn't matter. what he did with them does. nearly 3,000 rushing yards and 42 rushing touchdowns in a 12 game season is fucking ridiculous. if he was playing 14 and 15 game seasons like these guys do now and all the post-season stats counted he'd have rushed for close to 3,500 yards and over 50 touchdowns. In a single season. 

No one would teach a RB to run that way because well, no other mere mortal RB could run that way. God only made one person with knees, joints, tendons, thighs, and calves like that. It's amazing the guy didn't blow out his knee or pop his hamstring or tear something every other run.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #87 on: May 19, 2025, 04:37:08 PM »
Okay, I guess anyone with a 99-yard TD run is "the best."
Only if you overweight YPC, which... You have a tendency to do, IMHO. 

To answer your question directly... No. If a player is only on the field for one carry, and that one carry happens to be a 99-yard touchdown, and he never plays another snap... He's not in the conversation due to lack of sample size. He *might* be the best, but nobody is going to put their reputation behind claiming it because we can never truly know. 

I think it is a sliding scale, yes. You have to account for situation, and offensive scheme, and the level of the players around him on a team, and the level of the competition he was facing on the other side of the ball, etc...

For example, look at Calvin Johnson. In his top year, he was 14th in receptions, 9th in receiving yards, T2 in receiving TDs. Overall pretty darn good, but not by any means a world-beating statistical season. And yet anyone who watched him on the field knew he was a man amongst boys. His production was limited by Reggie Ball and an option offense. But everyone could see with their eyes that he was special. 

That same year Graham Harrell and Colt Brennan were the top of the heap statistically at the QB position. They were both good, but did anyone think they were all that special? Nope. They were system quarterbacks. 

That same year rushing was led by Ray Rice-Rutgers (attempts), Garrett Wolfe-NIU (yards), Anthony Alridge-Houston (ypc), and Ian Johnson-Boise (TDs). Again, they were good, but did anyone think they were all that special? Ray Rice made a name for himself at the next level, but he never got a nickname like Megatron--he was ultimately most famous for punching his fiancée. 

I wasn't paying attention to college football during Barry Sanders' year. I've never really studied tape or looked at the history during that time. So I have no opinion on him, either way. But he did win the Heisman, so at least SOMEONE thought he was pretty fucking good. Despite only playing one year. 

FearlessF

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #88 on: May 19, 2025, 10:03:05 PM »
his numbers on grass were better than his numbers on turf. just listen to some of the greatest defensive players in history talk about having to face him. they pretty much all say bar none he was the best back they ever played against. Reggie White said the only player he feared on the football field was....Barry Sanders. John Randle said bar none he was the best offensive player he ever played against and the toughest guy to tackle. Darren Woodson said he had nightmares before the game and couldn't sleep any time he was playing Barry Sanders. Rod Woodson said Barry was the best back he ever played against. Barry popped Rod Woodson's ACL and Rod Woodson never even touched him.
yup, stats don't tell the story, the defenders that tried to tackle the man........ that's the difference.
they would rather put the guy down after he got 5 yards on a forth an 4 a hundred times than try to take Barry 3 yards dep in the backfield on 1st and 10.
Barry made the best defensive palers in the league look silly.  the guy that had 1000 carries in 10 seasons didn't impress them
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #89 on: May 19, 2025, 11:33:55 PM »
b) his numbers on grass were better than his numbers on turf. just listen to some of the greatest defensive players in history talk about having to face him. they pretty much all say bar none he was the best back they ever played against. Reggie White said the only player he feared on the football field was....Barry Sanders. John Randle said bar none he was the best offensive player he ever played against and the toughest guy to tackle. Darren Woodson said he had nightmares before the game and couldn't sleep any time he was playing Barry Sanders. Rod Woodson said Barry was the best back he ever played against. Barry popped Rod Woodson's ACL and Rod Woodson never even touched him.
College, please.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #90 on: May 19, 2025, 11:36:07 PM »
the amount of carries doesn't matter. 
What if it was 16 carries?  Or 107?  This statement is silly.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #91 on: May 20, 2025, 12:00:41 AM »
Only if you overweight YPC, which... You have a tendency to do, IMHO.
 How did you determine that? lol

To answer your question directly... No. If a player is only on the field for one carry, and that one carry happens to be a 99-yard touchdown, and he never plays another snap... He's not in the conversation due to lack of sample size. He *might* be the best, but nobody is going to put their reputation behind claiming it because we can never truly know.
 Oh, let's not bring people's ego into this, lol.  So 1 carry is too few.  How many isn't too few?

I think it is a sliding scale, yes. You have to account for situation, and offensive scheme, and the level of the players around him on a team, and the level of the competition he was facing on the other side of the ball, etc...
Okay so what % for eye test and what % for stats?  50/50?  80/20?  

For example, look at Calvin Johnson. In his top year, he was 14th in receptions, 9th in receiving yards, T2 in receiving TDs. Overall pretty darn good, but not by any means a world-beating statistical season. And yet anyone who watched him on the field knew he was a man amongst boys. His production was limited by Reggie Ball and an option offense. But everyone could see with their eyes that he was special.
 Absolutely, he probably maximized his context.  Comparing him to other WRs in option offenses is easier than comparing him to air raid beneficiary WRs.  

That same year Graham Harrell and Colt Brennan were the top of the heap statistically at the QB position. They were both good, but did anyone think they were all that special? Nope. They were system quarterbacks.

That same year rushing was led by Ray Rice-Rutgers (attempts), Garrett Wolfe-NIU (yards), Anthony Alridge-Houston (ypc), and Ian Johnson-Boise (TDs). Again, they were good, but did anyone think they were all that special? Ray Rice made a name for himself at the next level, but he never got a nickname like Megatron--he was ultimately most famous for punching his fiancée.

I wasn't paying attention to college football during Barry Sanders' year. I've never really studied tape or looked at the history during that time. So I have no opinion on him, either way. But he did win the Heisman, so at least SOMEONE thought he was pretty fucking good. Despite only playing one year.
No one is suggesting he wasn't "pretty fucking good."  
Despite what Mr mdot says, carries matter, and it seems as if everyone is cool with 344 (or 373) as enough to determine "the best."  I don't think I've once criticized that, just questioned it.  

So it's not 200, from Bush's 8.7 ypc Heisman season.  Not Harvin's 194 career carries @ 9.5 per.
Sanders is 37th in career ypc, behind guys like IU's Coleman, Stanford's Love, Etienne from Clemson, a bunch of option guys like Sims and Rozier, FSU's Warrick Dunn, etc.

They had as many career carries with higher ypc averages.  
Sanders was fun to watch and went ballistic for one season.  But other guys did a tiny bit better over a career with as many carries.

This seems to me to come down to the fact Sanders did it mostly in 1 season.  His 1 season blows away anyone else's.  A special peak.  That's great.  
But was it the best season + 3 games ever?  The best season and a half?  
If a RB's 2nd-best season was much better than Sanders', does that count for anything?  And if his 3rd-best season blows Sanders' out of the water...does that matter even a little bit?

I find it odd that there doesn't seem to be any kind of sliding scale with peak vs career, especially with the RB position.  
And the 1-season peak seems to be most special.  Tidy.  Complete.  Easy.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #92 on: May 20, 2025, 08:39:30 AM »
I think Sanders just crushes the eye test
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #93 on: May 20, 2025, 09:25:20 AM »
Only if you overweight YPC, which... You have a tendency to do, IMHO.

How did you determine that? lol

So it's not 200, from Bush's 8.7 ypc Heisman season.  Not Harvin's 194 career carries @ 9.5 per.
Sanders is 37th in career ypc, behind guys like IU's Coleman, Stanford's Love, Etienne from Clemson, a bunch of option guys like Sims and Rozier, FSU's Warrick Dunn, etc.

They had as many career carries with higher ypc averages. 
Sanders was fun to watch and went ballistic for one season.  But other guys did a tiny bit better over a career with as many carries.

Again, throughout many years on this board, you've constantly talked about ypc. It's been one of the stats you continually highlight for RBs. We had that debate many years ago about ypc vs number of carries where you stated your belief (looking at backfields with two backs, and the one with fewer carries had higher ypc) that coaches should dial back number of carries for the lead guy to increase his ypc. 

And right here you state that "other guys did a tiny bit better over a career with as many carries"--defining "a tiny bit better" as higher ypc. 

That's why I say you overweight ypc. Which is also why--and my assertion supported by--you cherry picked a guy with one carry and a 99 yard TD, so the absolute maximum career ypc, as your extreme case. 


OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #94 on: May 20, 2025, 09:29:55 PM »
The 99-yard, 1 carry was a reply to "carries don't matter."  An anorexic example for a dim-witted statement.  
.
The backups having higher ypc averages than starters is strictly a sample size/validity thing.  
But it's sort of moot here, as I've acknowledged Sanders having the best ypc season with so many carries.....but in precisely 1 season.

We have a healthy number of RBs with higher ypc averages with more career carries (so "better" on both fronts) of which I'm asking why Sanders is considered better than them.  

I do understand the appeal of the precisely-one-season sample, as it's strength of argument, despite only a few hundred carries, is the validity of continuity.  (Generally) the same blockers, defenses, play-callers, etc make 1 season consistent and valid.

But at some point, volume may tilt the sliding scale it's way:  maybe 1.5 season's worth of carries does it...maybe 2x the volume of a season, maybe 3x.  I don't know.

i also can't shake the idea that the masses see someone "special" and hold them up on a pedestal, while I tend to value the guy who seems unremarkable, yet outperforms the special guy.  Isn't it more impressive to be ho-hum AND more productive?
It's not a long list, but there is a list of guys who fit that bill when it comes to RBs.  
Barry Sanders had the best season for a college RB ever.  Great.  But if that's enough to be "the best," then what about the guy who had the best 8-game stretch ever?  Or 5-game stretch?  

If you're willing to weigh Sanders' individual season over lofty-ypc guys' careers, then why not weigh other guys' seasons with less carries or 8-game stretches over Sanders' full season?

If you're drawing a line, that's fine, but where is the line and why do you draw it where you do?
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847badgerfan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2025, 06:10:43 AM »
Taylor>Gordon>Ball>Dayne>Sanders

COLLEGE
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2025, 09:21:01 AM »
The 99-yard, 1 carry was a reply to "carries don't matter."  An anorexic example for a dim-witted statement. 
.
The backups having higher ypc averages than starters is strictly a sample size/validity thing. 
But it's sort of moot here, as I've acknowledged Sanders having the best ypc season with so many carries.....but in precisely 1 season.

We have a healthy number of RBs with higher ypc averages with more career carries (so "better" on both fronts) of which I'm asking why Sanders is considered better than them. 

I do understand the appeal of the precisely-one-season sample, as it's strength of argument, despite only a few hundred carries, is the validity of continuity.  (Generally) the same blockers, defenses, play-callers, etc make 1 season consistent and valid.

But at some point, volume may tilt the sliding scale it's way:  maybe 1.5 season's worth of carries does it...maybe 2x the volume of a season, maybe 3x.  I don't know.

i also can't shake the idea that the masses see someone "special" and hold them up on a pedestal, while I tend to value the guy who seems unremarkable, yet outperforms the special guy.  Isn't it more impressive to be ho-hum AND more productive?
It's not a long list, but there is a list of guys who fit that bill when it comes to RBs. 
Barry Sanders had the best season for a college RB ever.  Great.  But if that's enough to be "the best," then what about the guy who had the best 8-game stretch ever?  Or 5-game stretch? 

If you're willing to weigh Sanders' individual season over lofty-ypc guys' careers, then why not weigh other guys' seasons with less carries or 8-game stretches over Sanders' full season?

If you're drawing a line, that's fine, but where is the line and why do you draw it where you do?
With the number of times you mention "ypc" in that post, and use terms like "outperforms" and "more productive" in relation to ypc numbers, does it make you consider AT ALL that you're overweighting ypc? 

For example, you brought up Reggie Bush and Percy Harvin as your high-ypc guys. Reggie Bush was the "lightning" to Lendale White's "thunder" in his Heisman season. Completely different usage between them. White was the "between the tackles" guy and Bush was used for other types of runs. They split carries almost equally that year. Harvin was listed as a WR and had the 4th-most carries on the team his senior year, 3rd-most his junior year, and 5th-most his sophomore year. You probably remember him more than I do, but how many of his carries were things like jet sweeps vs between the tackles runs? 

On the other hand, Barry Sanders rushed the ball 344 times. The next 3 RBs on the roster combined had only a little over 100, and looking over the OkSU schedule, they had a lot of blowout wins so I'm guessing a good portion of those were ONLY when Barry needed rest, or in garbage time. Barry was the workhorse back. Barry had to be that "between the tackles, every down back". Different usage than someone like Bush or Harvin == different ypc. 

I think ypc is important, but I don't think it's nearly as significant as you do. Because ypc can be heavily influenced by situation and usage, and so it's not always fair to compare two backs based purely on ypc when their usage is completely different. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2025, 09:26:31 AM »
I'd say there are a lot of variables that could be weighted differently depending on ... a lot of variables.

 

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