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Topic: Top 100 Players at Each Position

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #112 on: May 22, 2025, 08:12:55 AM »
I wonder how many here tout 'eye test' for gauging players also poo-poo 'eye test' when it comes to ranking teams.

:86:
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Cincydawg

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #113 on: May 22, 2025, 08:21:52 AM »
"There are lies, damned lies, and statistics" - Mark Twain
Actually, Mark Twain only quoted Benjamin Disraeli who is claimed to have stated that.

FearlessF

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #114 on: May 22, 2025, 09:10:06 AM »
I wonder how many here tout 'eye test' for gauging players also poo-poo 'eye test' when it comes to ranking teams.

:86:
eye test for ranking teams is better than the one stat (wins and losses)
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #115 on: May 22, 2025, 10:39:20 AM »
But any running play is called to obviously gain yardage.  If certain plays can be relied on to gain more yardage, then any coach is going to call those plays more often, yes?
So the reason I'm not overly convinced about play call type yielding higher ypc for some RBs who get those play call carries is that if there were a set of specific running plays that magically yielded higher ypc, then those plays would be called more.  Why even call the other plays?  They're shit. 
So let's think about that... One site (referencing NFL) suggests that one of the ways to differentiate RBs (at least on successful offenses) is based on number of carries. Per your point, coaches are going to do what works, more often, because it works, right? 

So, look at OkSU from 1986-1989. That's from Barry's freshman season until the season after he left. 

  • 1986: 
  • Record: 6-5
  • Plays per game: 71.4
  • Rushing percentage: 56.0%
  • Leading Rusher: Thomas - 173/743/4.3
  • Thomas touches (rush+receive) as percentage of total plays: 31.6%

  • 1987: 
  • Record: 9-2 (excl. bowl)
  • Plays per game: 72.5
  • Rushing percentage: 61.4%
  • Leading Rusher: Thomas - 251/1613/6.4
  • Thomas touches as percentage of total plays: 40.4%

  • 1988: 
  • Record: 9-2 (excl. bowl)
  • Plays per game: 73.0
  • Rushing percentage: 69.9%
  • Leading Rusher: Sanders - 344/2628/7.6
  • Sanders touches as percentage of total plays: 50.7%

  • 1989: 
  • Record: 4-7
  • Plays per game: 71.3
  • Rushing percentage: 59.7%
  • Leading Rusher: Hudson - 187/910/4.9
  • Hudson touches as percentage of total plays: 30.7%

Think about that. In 1988 Barry sanders touched the ball on over half of OkSU's offensive plays. Not including kick/punt returns--he had more than half of those overall too. 

If you want to talk about a coach doing something more and it leading to success, it's giving Barry Sanders the ball. They were winning games doing it. And despite doing that--and despite the defense KNOWING he was getting the ball--he still put up absolutely massive stats, including your favorite of 7.6 ypc. 

In Reggie Bush's Heisman season, he touched the ball on 28.6% of USC's offensive plays. In Percy Harvin's 2008 season, he touched the ball on 14.8% of Florida's offensive plays. 

Two others we've talked about... Ron Dayne in 1999 touched the ball on 43.8% of Wisconsin's plays, and in 2019, Jonathan Taylor on 40.5% of Wisconsin's plays.  

I'd say that's justifying how tremendous Barry Sanders was based on more than "eye test". He put the team on his back and carried them. 

(All stats from sports-reference.com: # plays and run/pass balance was taken from the game "averages", percentage of total plays taken from the "rushing & receiving" stats -- my apologies if anything is slightly off.)

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #116 on: May 22, 2025, 03:11:06 PM »
Sure, good on that HC.  

But who was the Tebow on 1988 OKST's team to take carries away from Sanders?  Who was the Lendale White? lol
That's not fair, and all in good fun.

That being said, I'm not sure which point you're addressing with the post.  

It doesn't seem to fit the play-call TYPE argument.  I wonder about Sanders pre-88 seasons and why he didn't get more carries then.  Their HC knew what they had, as did Barry Switzer.

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #117 on: May 22, 2025, 03:29:22 PM »
Sure, good on that HC. 

But who was the Tebow on 1988 OKST's team to take carries away from Sanders?  Who was the Lendale White? lol
That's not fair, and all in good fun.

That being said, I'm not sure which point you're addressing with the post. 

It doesn't seem to fit the play-call TYPE argument.  I wonder about Sanders pre-88 seasons and why he didn't get more carries then.  Their HC knew what they had, as did Barry Switzer.
It doesn't address the play call type argument. I don't think we're quite going to see eye to eye on that. I personally think situation matters, more than you do. I.e. a player who lines up and runs power between the tackles with two tight ends on 1st and 10 is going to face different defensive looks than a CoP back who lines up with the offense spread 4 wide on 3rd and 8 and the defense is thinking pass. But we're just going to have to agree to disagree on that. 

It was more addressing your question of why Barry from 1988 gets SO much love based on that one season. I'm saying it's more than eye test. I'm saying that he was just a goddamn one man wrecking crew. And the fact that he had over half the team's offensive touches is just... INSANE. It's a level of workhorse performance that is unique

I wanted to offer a different perspective of why some people put Barry above everyone. It might have only been one season as the starter, and it might have been a lower ypc than some of the other backs you've mentioned... But there might not be another back in modern college football history that's done what he's done, either. 

I'd be interested to see if there are any other equivalents. Even someone like Ron Dayne didn't do that, and that was when the Big Ten was still in the "3 yards and a cloud of dust" era. 

A modern equivalent might have been Ashton Jeanty last year. 397 total touches against 799 offensive plays for Boise State, or just BARELY under 50%. And on a good team, too... 12-2. So he was clearly the centerpiece of a VERY successful offense. But this was against a weak conference schedule, so he'll never be seen as the same as Barry. 

FearlessF

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #118 on: May 22, 2025, 03:33:04 PM »
  I wonder about Sanders pre-88 seasons and why he didn't get more carries then.  Their HC knew what they had, as did Barry Switzer.


could be many reasons - maybe tryin to win a hypesman for Thurman - maybe Barry was a bit immature or needed to put on some weight
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FearlessF

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #119 on: May 22, 2025, 03:34:37 PM »
 Who was the Lendale White? lol


1989:
Record: 4-7
Plays per game: 71.3
Rushing percentage: 59.7%
Leading Rusher: Hudson - 187/910/4.9
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #120 on: May 22, 2025, 04:44:55 PM »
I wonder about Sanders pre-88 seasons and why he didn't get more carries then.  Their HC knew what they had, as did Barry Switzer.
could be many reasons - maybe tryin to win a hypesman for Thurman - maybe Barry was a bit immature or needed to put on some weight
Could simply be load management. You know you've got a Thurman Thomas on your team, you don't need to lean on Barry as much. In 1988 you had Barry and... Nobody. 

Could be physical development. Thurman Thomas was a 4th year senior, so ostensibly two years older than Barry. That's a big thing at that age. Maybe he was just more developed that year even if he career-wise wasn't "better".  

I don't *generally* think coaches are prioritizing winning a player a Heisman over getting the best damn record they can. They're trying to win games. And they did.

They finished with the same 9-2 regular season in 1987 as they did in 1988. So the TEAM success was similar, as far as W-L record anyway. It's not like giving Thomas more carries was stopping them from being successful. They were still 3 wins better (regular season) than 1986. It would be hard to suggest that they were giving up wins by not giving Barry more carries.

Also, Sanders had a lower ypc in 1987 than Thomas. We could try 100 different ways to analyze WHY that is... But if we're aligned with OAM's idea that ypc is one of the most critical points there is, giving the higher ypc guy (Thomas) the ball more often than the lower ypc guy (Sanders) seems like a good idea. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #121 on: May 22, 2025, 05:09:43 PM »
There are RBs who had a higher % of his team's carries, but I haven't written them down, unfortunately.  None that averaged 7.6 ypc though, of course.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #122 on: May 22, 2025, 05:11:01 PM »
Coming up with say top 50 RBs over the past 50 years would be hard enough.

I personally prefer to list the ones who really impressed me a lot, and then let someone else try and rank them somehow.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #123 on: May 22, 2025, 06:04:44 PM »
There are RBs who had a higher % of his team's carries, but I haven't written them down, unfortunately.  None that averaged 7.6 ypc though, of course.
Yeah, but BTW that's one reason I didn't limit it to % of team carries--I was talking about % of team touches. 

Some RB might have 80% of his team's carries, but if his team passes the ball 70% of the time, he's only got 24% of the team's touches (okay maybe slightly more if he's getting some receptions too). Barry had >50% of the team's touches. 

The link in the longer post re: the NFL though was interesting... It looked at Eddie George, who had pedestrian ypc (I think it was 3.71) but for the first 7 years of his career with the Titans (a successful, winning, franchise through those years) was getting insane carry volume for an NFL team. Essentially his ypc wasn't stellar, but he was helping his team win. Which was what got me thinking about volume. If the coach is giving someone insane volume--even if the ypc isn't amazing--he's probably doing it because it's working--and generally you think maybe that means the RB is pretty damn good. 

And then when I looked at Sanders' volume in 1988 relative to the team overall? Holy shit! I think the coach basically said "feed him the damn rock until someone proves they can stop him." At that point it doesn't matter if he's at 6.0, 7.0, or 8.0 ypc. He's just so damn good that his production isn't a question of ypc stats. It's that he's an otherworldly talent who is a game-changer. You're not worried about ypc. You just give him the damn ball as much as you can because he's helping you win. 

It's why it's hard to compare someone like him to a Reggie Bush or a Percy Harvin, who had higher ypc. Neither of them were truly the centerpiece of the offense. Bush was electric, an AMAZING talent in the open field. He was dynamite; just light the fuse and watch what happens. But he, never in his college or pro career, was a true workhorse RB. I'm not in any sense sure that if LenDale White didn't exist, and you gave him all of White's carries, that he either would have held up for a full season, or that he would have retained such a lofty ypc. Harvin? He was a gadget player listed as WR, who occasionally did double duty in the backfield. Situationally, Tebow was the primary RB. If you lined him up in a traditional RB role for 250+ carries per season, you think he's going to retain his lofty ypc? I don't. He'd be lucky to stay alive all season at his size.

I'm not going to say that a Reggie Bush or a Percy Harvin is an "a dime a dozen" type of player. They were electric. But I think Barry Sanders may be a one of one type of player. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #124 on: May 22, 2025, 07:57:41 PM »
Yeah, but BTW that's one reason I didn't limit it to % of team carries--I was talking about % of team touches.

Some RB might have 80% of his team's carries, but if his team passes the ball 70% of the time, he's only got 24% of the team's touches (okay maybe slightly more if he's getting some receptions too). Barry had >50% of the team's touches.

The link in the longer post re: the NFL though was interesting... It looked at Eddie George, who had pedestrian ypc (I think it was 3.71) but for the first 7 years of his career with the Titans (a successful, winning, franchise through those years) was getting insane carry volume for an NFL team. Essentially his ypc wasn't stellar, but he was helping his team win. Which was what got me thinking about volume. If the coach is giving someone insane volume--even if the ypc isn't amazing--he's probably doing it because it's working--and generally you think maybe that means the RB is pretty damn good.

And then when I looked at Sanders' volume in 1988 relative to the team overall? Holy shit! I think the coach basically said "feed him the damn rock until someone proves they can stop him." At that point it doesn't matter if he's at 6.0, 7.0, or 8.0 ypc. He's just so damn good that his production isn't a question of ypc stats. It's that he's an otherworldly talent who is a game-changer. You're not worried about ypc. You just give him the damn ball as much as you can because he's helping you win.

It's why it's hard to compare someone like him to a Reggie Bush or a Percy Harvin, who had higher ypc. Neither of them were truly the centerpiece of the offense. Bush was electric, an AMAZING talent in the open field. He was dynamite; just light the fuse and watch what happens. But he, never in his college or pro career, was a true workhorse RB. I'm not in any sense sure that if LenDale White didn't exist, and you gave him all of White's carries, that he either would have held up for a full season, or that he would have retained such a lofty ypc. Harvin? He was a gadget player listed as WR, who occasionally did double duty in the backfield. Situationally, Tebow was the primary RB. If you lined him up in a traditional RB role for 250+ carries per season, you think he's going to retain his lofty ypc? I don't. He'd be lucky to stay alive all season at his size.

I'm not going to say that a Reggie Bush or a Percy Harvin is an "a dime a dozen" type of player. They were electric. But I think Barry Sanders may be a one of one type of player.
Yeah, I got the team touches thing, I was just being lazy.  And throughout history, a VAST majority of teams ran the ball over 60% of the time (exceptions being super shitty teams that were always playing catch-up).  So for me, it's close enough not to matter.

I can't help but mention this.......Sanders' backup in '88 averaged 7.9 ypc  :57:
So obviously feeding Sanders was a mistake!

A funny thing about that team was that they had a WR with nearly 50% of their receptions for the season - Hart Lee Dykes.
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« Last Edit: May 23, 2025, 07:56:33 AM by OrangeAfroMan »
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MrNubbz

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Re: Top 100 Players at Each Position
« Reply #125 on: May 22, 2025, 08:35:30 PM »
Actually, Mark Twain only quoted Benjamin Disraeli who is claimed to have stated that.
Thanx for that update Mr Clavin ;D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2025, 08:41:41 PM by MrNubbz »
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