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Topic: The Great Wall of Dallas

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MrNubbz

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #14 on: April 08, 2019, 06:28:04 PM »
Quote from: bwarbiany on April 08, 2019, 03:58:34 PM

IMHO, it does help to suggest that having a great OL is a big part of having a great football team, which is what I was saying--that a great OL make the skill position guys around them MUCH better, and thus it's probably MORE important than the skill positions that everyone pays attention to.
Ed Zachery,I remember the movie "North Dallas Forty" the the QB (Mac Davis) tells the receiver(Nick Nolte) "you keep me in the headlines but the O-line keeps me out of the obituaries".More than a grain of truth there
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2019, 06:55:23 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on April 08, 2019, 06:28:04 PM
Ed Zachery,I remember the movie "North Dallas Forty" the the QB (Mac Davis) tells the receiver(Nick Nolte) "you keep me in the headlines but the O-line keeps me out of the obituaries".More than a grain of truth there
Yep. When you have a line that across the starting 5 has something like 5+ all-pro seasons and career-wise a dozen+ pro bowl seasons, it's going to be good.
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Mdot21

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2019, 07:46:53 PM »
Quote from: 847badgerfan on April 08, 2019, 03:45:07 PM
And, despite that I no longer watch, the Packers still suck.
that's pretty crazy to me- how quickly and how hard that Packers team with McCarthy/Rodgers fell apart after all that success they had. After McCarthy's first year which was not bad at 8-8- they had a 10 year run where they went to the playoffs 9 of those years and won the NFC North 7 of those years. Then in 2017 and 2018 it just all went up in smoke. Poof.
Not sure it's going to get better either considering they just basically handed Aaron Rodgers $200 million. Not gonna have a lot of money to pay other guys when he's making $37 million a year.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2019, 08:49:04 PM »
The number of pro bowls isn't really valid data when rating offensive linemen, is it?  OL are often anonymous, which makes me want to bet those most often voted into the pro bowl were on TV a lot.  The best teams are on TV the most.  What's to say a guard could be factually average as a player, but he's on an offense with a HOF QB, HOF RB, HOF WR, and the team is really good and on TV all the time - and that guy getting a Pro Bowl nod?  Is it really that absurd?




I played OL, I'm quite stingy to compliment an OL unless he's doing his job well nearly every play.  To accurately rate an OL, you need film study.  As with voters of a great many other things in sports, the voting tends to be lazy.  Okay, I'll pick the left tackle on the team with a 1800 yard rusher who won 13 games....then no one will criticize the choice - kind of thing.

We don't have stats of how OL grade out game to game, especially back into the 90s.  So it's just reputation thing (ie - no data).  Meh.
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FearlessF

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2019, 10:14:12 PM »
that's why you use your eyeballs

check the tape

if the back was running through lanes that you and I could get through, credit the O-line

if the back was breaking 3 tackles to get back to the LOS then discount the O-line and credit the back
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847badgerfan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2019, 10:28:51 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 08, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
The number of pro bowls isn't really valid data when rating offensive linemen, is it?
All-pro is the measuring stick. The pro bowl is a beauty contest like all the rest of the pro leagues have, and is just another "game" the NFL can put on TV.
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bayareabadger

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2019, 11:01:03 PM »
Are we still going over a bunch of stuff to get to the point if Emmit was quite as not one of the 2-3 backs ever as the general consensus is, right? 
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Kris60

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2019, 11:02:54 PM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 08, 2019, 08:49:04 PM
The number of pro bowls isn't really valid data when rating offensive linemen, is it?  OL are often anonymous, which makes me want to bet those most often voted into the pro bowl were on TV a lot.  The best teams are on TV the most.  What's to say a guard could be factually average as a player, but he's on an offense with a HOF QB, HOF RB, HOF WR, and the team is really good and on TV all the time - and that guy getting a Pro Bowl nod?  Is it really that absurd?




I played OL, I'm quite stingy to compliment an OL unless he's doing his job well nearly every play.  To accurately rate an OL, you need film study.  As with voters of a great many other things in sports, the voting tends to be lazy.  Okay, I'll pick the left tackle on the team with a 1800 yard rusher who won 13 games....then no one will criticize the choice - kind of thing.

We don't have stats of how OL grade out game to game, especially back into the 90s.  So it's just reputation thing (ie - no data).  Meh.
Yeah, I’ve been skeptical of OL Pro Bowls for a while for all the reasons you mention.  I actually read or heard someone say years ago that once an OL gets the reputation for being good he will get  Pro Bowl nods well past the time they should.
The writers vote the All Pro teams. Are they watching tape? If so, are they qualified? I don’t know the answers to those questions.
I was watching a lot of NFL in the early 90s.  It always “seemed” to me that Smith had more room to run than Sanders. Maybe my perception was skewed. Idk.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2019, 11:31:35 PM »
Quote from: bayareabadger on April 08, 2019, 11:01:03 PM
Are we still going over a bunch of stuff to get to the point if Emmit was quite as not one of the 2-3 backs ever as the general consensus is, right?
No, we're just having a conversation about how to accurately rate OLs.  Feel free to chime in.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2019, 11:35:40 PM »
Quote from: Kris60 on April 08, 2019, 11:02:54 PM
Yeah, I’ve been skeptical of OL Pro Bowls for a while for all the reasons you mention.  I actually read or heard someone say years ago that once an OL gets the reputation for being good he will get  Pro Bowl nods well past the time they should.
The writers vote the All Pro teams. Are they watching tape? If so, are they qualified? I don’t know the answers to those questions.
I was watching a lot of NFL in the early 90s.  It always “seemed” to me that Smith had more room to run than Sanders. Maybe my perception was skewed. Idk.
I see them like gold gloves in MLB - once you get a reputation, you're the default for years.  We know a RB can have a down year, a QB can, a CF in baseball, or a first baseman....but why wouldn't OL have up and down years?  We now know that defense in baseball ebbs and flows from year to year, it only makes sense that effective OL play does as well.
This isn't about any particular RBs, it's about how football is light years behind MLB in terms of diversity of statistics and smart people working to quantify that which is extremely hard to quantify.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2019, 11:48:33 PM »
We've learned a player in MLB won 8 gold gloves and maybe deserved 6, or he won 8 and deserved 8, but not in the 8 years he won.  We don't have a clue when it comes to offensive line play.

Maybe Anthony Munoz was an all-time great, but that doesn't mean he was great in every season of his 10-year prime.  
Looking at Aikman for DAL, in 93 and 94:
His sack % decreased...was that because of Larry Allen?
His rating went down because he threw twice as many INTs...
Switzer took over for Johnson, maybe a new offense?  
Emmitt got worse from 93 to 94, but scored 21 rushing TD.

How could the offense relatively stink with an all-world beast like Larry Allen being inserted into the OL?  
Or how about 1997?  DAL ran 1,015 plays and Larry Allen was called for no holding penalties.  Would anyone here, especially anyone who has played OL, like to suggest he didn't hold ONCE in over 1,000 offensive plays?

It's just a super murkey aspect of sports statistics that is sorely lacking.  I'm simply pointing this out and wondering aloud if we could maybe work on it a little.
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“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2019, 09:26:10 AM »
Quote from: Kris60 on April 08, 2019, 11:02:54 PM
I was watching a lot of NFL in the early 90s.  It always “seemed” to me that Smith had more room to run than Sanders. Maybe my perception was skewed. Idk.
bingo
mine might have been skewed cause I have a healthy amount of hate for the Cowboys
were you a huge Lions/Barry Sanders fan?
did you hate the Cowboys?
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bayareabadger

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2019, 10:49:20 AM »
Quote from: OrangeAfroMan on April 08, 2019, 11:31:35 PM
No, we're just having a conversation about how to accurately rate OLs.  Feel free to chime in.
Depends my resources. 
The first and best tool would be other offensive linemen/line coaches who grind film. 
Next might be yards before contact if someone wants to track that. Some people like adjusted line yards, though I prefer just looking at how often a run gets five yards, mixed with short yardsage conversion rates. 
 Tracking pass blocking can be a nightmare, especially in the modern era because of how offenses have changed. 
 Also worth noting that wall pro bowls are at times not a great indicator, many very great players also go to a lot of pro  bowls. Where the thread started talking about where these guys came from is just a reminder of how developmental  that position is and hard to evaluate it is.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The Great Wall of Dallas
« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2019, 11:49:53 AM »
Larry Allen was a rookie in 94. I'm sure it took him time to adjust to the pro game.
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