header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: #3 Michigan (9-0, 12-0) at #2 Ohio State (8-1, 11-1) Post Game

 (Read 9375 times)

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2990
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2022, 10:25:52 AM »
Miss having her around. She was a great presence with this group for a long time.  Please convince her to stop by the board.

Will do.  Hope you're doing well.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2022, 01:17:44 PM »
Jeffrey Dahmer vs. the Unabomber.  America's greatest rivalry
Michigan gets Leopold and Loeb too, well not both but one of them went to Michigan and I don't feel like looking up which one.  

If you are not familiar they were very intelligent gay lovers who murdered a young boy in Chicago basically just because they thought they were smarter than everybody else and wanted to prove it to themselves by getting away with a murder.  This was in about 1920ish, and they were defended by Clarence Darrow who conceded their guilt but argued against the death penalty mostly on the basis of Loepold on Loeb's relative youth.  

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2022, 02:11:36 PM »
As far as the game, I think the haze surrounding the injury situation on both sides makes it nigh on to impossible to make an projections.  

Obviously all guys on both sides are going to want to play, games like these are why you play the game.  It is possible that JSN and Treyvon Henderson are back at full strength along with Miyan Williams.  On the other side it is possible that Corum and Edwards are back at full strength.  

I don't frankly trust the injury reports out of either camp.  If I were either coach I'd want to keep things hazy.  For example, lets say that Corum is done for the season.  If I were Jim Harbaugh, I wouldn't admit that.  I'd make the Buckeyes prepare to defend him by claiming that there wasn't any structural damage and he'll play.  I'm not saying that IS what is going on and I certainly hope not, I wouldn't wish injury on anyone, not even a Wolverine, I'm just saying that I see this as a distinct possibility.  Also, I don't mean that to pick on Michigan, I would expect Day to play the same game.  Thus, I don't think we really know who is going to be truly ready to go and we will not know until a little after noon on Saturday.  

Honestly, I can see this game being a tight one or getting out of hand either way.  My thoughts:
Michigan wants to run the ball, then run it some more, then run it again.  If they can do that effectively, they are in good shape.  If not, I just don't know where McCarthy is.  He started out with an insanely high completion percentage but lately he has been barely mediocre:

  • vs Illinois:  18-34 for 208 yards, no TD, no INT, QBR of 46.7.  6.1 yards per attempt, 11.6 per completion.  
  • vs Nebraska:  8-17 for 129 yards, 2 TD, no INT, QBR of 50.5.  7.6 yards per attempt, 16.1 per completion.  
  • vs Rutgers:  13-27 for 151 yards, 2 TD, no INT, QBR of 85.8.  5.6 yards per attempt, 11.6 per completion.  
  • vs MSU:  15-25 for 167 yards, 1 TD, no INT, QBR of 64.4.  6.4 yards per attempt, 11.1 per completion.  

That is where I see a potential for this game to get out of hand against the Wolverines.  If they can't run effectively either because tOSU stops it or because they get in a hole passing just isn't their thing and completing right around 50% of their passes just isn't going to cut it.  

OTOH, I can see it getting out of hand the other way basically if last year repeats.  If Ohio State can't contain Michigan's rushing game, Harbaugh will just keep running and running and running and all of Ohio State's offensive firepower will spend most of the afternoon as spectators.  

A bad potential for Michigan:
The Wolverines have had a lot of slow starts this year.  @Mdot21 will tell you that they make great adjustments and are a second half team.  Against PSU I can buy that but against Rutgers and Indiana not so much.  Michigan was down 17-3 against Rutgers at the half and tied 10 all against Indiana at the half.  That isn't because they make good halftime adjustments, that is because they played a couple bad halves of football.  For comparison, tOSU led both teams 28-7 at halftime.  Even in the PSU game which ended up being a blowout and easily Michigan's most impressive win of the year, recall that the Nittany Lions led 17-16 early in the third quarter.  

In all three games, Michigan's early struggles were largely a product of issues converting drives into points.  Ie, they were moving the ball but they weren't getting TD's out of it.  Michigan's first half drives against IU:
  • 5 plays, 77 yards, TD
  • 5 plays, 17 yards, punt
  • 8 plays, 49 yards, FG - had a 1st and 10 on the IU 28 and ran three plays for 2 yards.  
  • 3 plays, 5 yards, punt
  • 8 plays, 34 yards, missed FG - They got possession at the IU 34 from an INT drove to 1st and goal at the IU7 then went backwards and had a chip-shot FG blocked.  
  • 8 plays, 39 yards, downs
Michigan's first half possessions against PSU:
  • 11 plays, 64 yards, FG - had a 1st and 10 on the PSU 17 and got 6 yards on 3 plays to kick a chip-shot FG
  • 13 plays, 77 yards, FG - had a 1st and goal on the 6 and 2nd and goal on the 2 then lost yardage on back-to-back plays before a chip-shot FG
  • 13 plays, 70 yards, TD
  • 5 plays, 33 yards, Pick-6
  • 11 plays, 60 yards, FG - had a 3rd and 2 on the PSU 5 and got stopped for a chip-shot FG
Michigan's first half possessions against RU:
  • 12 plays, 75 yards, TD
  • 5 plays, 17 yards, punt blocked for an RU TD
  • 6 plays, 50 yards, TD
  • 5 plays, 10 yards, punt
  • 9 plays, 30 yards, missed FG
  • 8 plays, 36 yards, missed FG
I see this as a potential big problem for Michigan because Ohio State's offense is (or at least can be when they are clicking) MUCH better than IU's, PSU's, or RU's.  If they give up a pick-6 like they did against PSU or a punt block TD like they did against RU and also get stopped for FG's or FG attempts then even if they move the ball reasonably effectively (like they did against IU, PSU, and RU) they could still find themselves in a REALLY deep hole at halftime.  The Hoosier, Lion, and Knight offenses were not good enough to take advantage.  Michigan's struggles merely let them hang around until Michigan put them away in the second half but Ohio State's offense if a different beast.  

A bad potential for Ohio State:
If Michigan can contain Ohio State's rushing game without extra defenders then it could be a really long day for the Buckeyes.  For an example, Schiano had Rutgers' defense set up to prevent tOSU from scorching them through the air.  It worked, Stroud was a rather pedestrian 13/22 for 154 yards with 2TD's and a pick.  That is only 7 yards per attempt and 11.8 per completion.  The problem is that in order to do that the Scarlet Knights had to leave themselves at the mercy of Ohio State's running game and Miyan Williams absolutely torched them.  He had 189 yards on only 21 carries (an insane average of 9 yards per) and tied a program record with five rushing TD's.  

Michigan's defense is a completely different beast.  They *MIGHT* be able to copy Rutgers' approach to neutralize Stroud but still be able to contain tOSU's running game simply because their athletes are a lot better than Rutgers'.  If so then the Buckeyes are in trouble.  

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2022, 02:29:41 PM »
One more numbers view because I'm a numbers guy.  I track both teams against their opponents based on Sagrin rankings, here is Michigan:

Optimistic view for tOSU / pessimistic view for M:
Simple, the PSU game is an outlier.  Look at the above chart.  The next best team that Michigan beat by at least as many points as PSU is #73 Nebraska.  Against their other three top-50 opponents, Michigan won by 13, 2, and 7.  That is fine but it isn't anywhere close to CFP caliber.  It is what you'd expect from a team around #20 or so.  Maybe Michigan isn't actually all that good and the PSU game was just some combination of a great day for Michigan or a horrible day for Penn State?  

Pessimistic view for tOSU / optimistic view for M:
Maybe there is a reason that Michigan performed so far off from their norm against Penn State.  Maybe they are just a team that rises to the occasion in big games.  That is easily their biggest so far this year and they did.  Maybe they'll do the same thing on Saturday?  

Here is Ohio State:

Optimistic view for M / pessimistic view for tOSU:
The wins against Iowa and Wisconsin look great but beating PSU, ND, and UMD by only 13, 11, and 13 suggests that the Buckeyes are hardly unbeatable.  Michigan is better than any of those teams.  

Pessimistic view for M / Optimistic view for tOSU:
Even when they have struggled the Buckeyes haven't won a game by less than 11 points and in the almost three months since Labor Day weekend they haven't won a game by less than 13.  A few teams have stopped parts of tOSU's offense but the Buckeyes have simply overwhelmed them with the other parts.  A few teams have had offensive success against the Buckeyes but success is a relative term, they still lost by at least two scores.  Also, the teams that have had the most offensive success against Ohio State were Penn State (31) and Maryland (30).  Both of them did it through the air which isn't Michigan's comfort zone.  Penn State had 371 yards passing and only 111 rushing.  Maryland had 318 passing and only 84 rushing.  Could Michigan play that kind of game even if they wanted to?  Do they want to?  

Honestbuckeye

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 5796
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2022, 02:34:01 PM »
You can analyze this game to death.  

These games are rarely as expected.  

Both teams are quite capable of beating the other.  Who actually does it?   

I am confident we won’t see Trayvon Henderson, JSN or starting right guard Matthew Jones for OSU.  We may see a limited version of Miyan Williams. We might see a limited version and limit snaps for Mike Hall, The buckeyes best defensive tackle by far.   

The assumption is that we will see a fully healthy Blake Corum and as Jim Knowles said today, if you’re in the wrong place he will make you pay.
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14340
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2022, 02:35:08 PM »
damn that was a hefty post. that's why I love reading your stuff, detail oriented. 

JJ hasn't been top notch past few weeks but to be frank his WRs are also doing him no favors. The drops from receivers have been brutal and miscommunication on routes has been bad as well. Andrel Anthony finally got some run only to drop a DIME by JJ on a 4th and 3 that was a sure-fire TD that hit him in both hands. Refs screwed that play up as Illinois jumped off-sides and never threw the flag. Resulted in turnover on downs. Yes JJ missed a wide open Colston Loveland in the end zone for a TD and threw the check down to the 4th/5th string 175 pound walk-on RB Isaiah Gash- who had a sure 1st down only to....drop the football. Kid probably has zero confidence in his WR group and himself right now. It'd be hard not to. 

Michigan was down it's starting LG, RT, #1 TE (which technically I'm not really counting bc he's been gone all season), #2 TE, #2 RB, and their #1 RB in the second half. Of course the offense was going to struggle. I think Erick All not being there has really hurt this offense tremendously as well. He was by far the best blocking TE they had and the most explosive/athletic one as well. Schoonmaker and Colston Loveland aren't catching a crossing route and taking it 50 yards to the house like All can. They don't have his top end speed, not even close. All was a much more dangerous weapon in the passing game than any TE they had. That hurts a passing game that was already anemic greatly. 

Anywhoo....like medina said, probably doesn't even make sense to talk about injuries as neither coach is going to tip their hands. We're just going to have to wait until kickoff to find out who is playing. 

As for Corum, it's obviously nothing serious like ACL/MCL/PCL or torn meniscus. Most likely a knee bruise. Which can probably take anywhere from 1-4 weeks to heal. Just depends on the severity of it and how much pain he's going to have. Even if he's playing he won't be at 100%. But this time of year- what player is 100%? 

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14340
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2022, 02:37:50 PM »
You can analyze this game to death. 

These games are rarely as expected. 

Both teams are quite capable of beating the other.  Who actually does it? 

I am confident we won’t see Trayvon Henderson, JSN or starting right guard Matthew Jones for OSU.  We may see a limited version of Miyan Williams. We might see a limited version and limit snaps for Mike Hall, The buckeyes best defensive tackle by far. 

The assumption is that we will see a fully healthy Blake Corum and as Jim Knowles said today, if you’re in the wrong place he will make you pay.
pretty much my thoughts. 

did anyone expect that out come in 2021? anyone expect that outcome in 2018? I sure as hell didn't for either. 

this one is always a doozy. and you can almost always expect the unexpected. 

as far as players/injuries- we probably ain't gonna no sh*t til kickoff. neither staff is going to divulge injury info. why would they?

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17148
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2022, 02:45:05 PM »
damn that was a hefty post. that's why I love reading your stuff, detail oriented.
I got a hefty detail oriented post - REVENGE
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14340
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2022, 02:53:58 PM »
I got a hefty detail oriented post - REVENGE
if we're talking strictly REVENGE here, Michigan owes OSU a few more arse kickings after the last 20 years they just went through getting their asses pummeled in by OSU pretty much every year.

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14340
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2022, 02:56:11 PM »
pretty good CFB podcast called CFB Nerds. Their computer model predicts Ohio State wins 28-26. The hosts both pick Ohio State to win, one 31-17 the other 34-21. 


https://youtu.be/IYWiXv2C--Y

Mdot21

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 14340
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2022, 02:59:22 PM »
found this NCAA football computer simulation. 

https://www.ncaagamesim.com/

These computer simulations don't mean jack but it had Ohio State winning 31-30. If it's a 1 or 2 point game...man have to think the loser still has a great shot getting into that playoff. USC is no lock to beat ND and Oregon. And I don't care what Clemson does- they shouldn't be in the playoff period imo. 

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17148
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2022, 03:01:34 PM »
if we're talking strictly REVENGE here, Michigan owes OSU a few more arse kickings after the last 20 years they just went through getting their asses pummeled in by OSU pretty much every year.
Sorry we still have a few to catch up all time and it's reachable in my time here.Gotta look at the big picture.And agreed dabo doesn't deserve a spot in the top 8.At least 3 teams from the SEC and one or two from the BIG would woodshed them
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2022, 03:09:19 PM »
found this NCAA football computer simulation.

https://www.ncaagamesim.com/

These computer simulations don't mean jack but it had Ohio State winning 31-30. If it's a 1 or 2 point game...man have to think the loser still has a great shot getting into that playoff. USC is no lock to beat ND and Oregon. And I don't care what Clemson does- they shouldn't be in the playoff period imo.
It is definitely possible but I think there are two things that make it unlikely even if things go right elsewhere:
  • If Michigan is the 11-1 team their pathetic OOC is going to be an issue. Their win over PSU might be their only win over a ranked team.
  • If Ohio State is the 11-1 team their losing AT HOME to Michigan is going to be an issue. 


medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8906
  • Liked:
Re: The Game #3 Michigan (11-0) at #2 Ohio State (11-0)
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2022, 03:10:45 PM »
And agreed dabo doesn't deserve a spot in the top 8.At least 3 teams from the SEC and one or two from the BIG would woodshed them
I assume you mean tOSU as the "one" and M as the "or two", I'd add Penn State and say three. 

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.