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Topic: The future of NCAA amateurism

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #56 on: October 25, 2018, 02:45:36 PM »
That doesn't sound like corruption to me. It sounds like pure capitalism.
Bagmen in the current system are corrupt because they are against the rules. In a system that frees each player to seek their own market value, zero of that is corrupt/shady because it is explicitly encouraged.
In terms of pure capitalism, I won't be sad if the P5 were to further pare down because they don't trust they could compete. But that won't be a very popular opinion. So I'm back to the trusty angle from above: At least then it would be out in the open.
Pure capitalism doesn't work in sports. That's why every professional league has a draft, has a salary cap, limited roster sizes, etc.
The value of the product depends on some semblance of level competition. Otherwise in the professional leagues, the big-money markets would just pay more to the best players, win every year, increasing their payroll every year as they win more and more, and then ratings would tank because nobody would think it's fair.
Today, college football already has a HUGE natural imbalance, because there's no draft. You get players by recruiting them. That immediately gives a built-in advantage to the helmet teams over non-helmet, to P5 over G5, to G5 over FCS, etc. 
Most of the changes we've tried to institute over the course of the history of CFB have been to try to blunt that. Scholarship limits is a huge example of this, because we don't want Michigan and OSU stockpiling all the best players in the midwest so that Purdue and Indiana can't field even remotely competitive teams. 
If you start allowing uncontrolled money, you'll see that imbalance get worse. 
And if it gets bad enough, eventually it'll destroy the sport.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2018, 02:50:00 PM »
The VAST majority of college football players will never play professional ball, and from a "talent" standpoint, are nothing more than amateurs - their "market value" is likely no more than the value of the scholarship they receive.  The thing that's ridiculous about players demanding payment is, there are hundreds of thousands of kids who would love the opportunity to play FBS ball for nothing more than the scholarship, so the "labor force" is adequately compensated or they wouldn't find people lining up to participate.
Untrue. Yes, many of these players will NEVER have value at the NFL or NBA level. But that doesn't mean for a second that their market value is only as large as their scholarship.
If the schools had the ability to try to use financial incentives to recruit them, the value of many players would be above their scholarship. A low 4* or high 3*, the sort of players that are marginal to ever get drafted, would be of great value to basically every P5 program. Definitely above scholarship level. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #58 on: October 25, 2018, 03:03:49 PM »
Perhaps no more at any prior time in human history than now do we desperately need a human population with scientific literacy. This is a rapidly growing era of scientific revolutions that need to be consistently parsed from misinformation. Even or especially by non-experts.

And no matter what side one's opinions originate, when it comes to hot button topics (like cloning, evolution, anthropogenic climate change, stem cell biology, vaccines, GMO foods), society can only benefit from maximizing its skills of emotionlessly/methodically reasoning through things scientifically.
I wish journalism was more like patent law. I.e. to be a patent lawyer, you need to get a degree in STEM, then go to law school, then an additional year of patent law specific schooling. Essentially they assume that to be a patent lawyer, you need to technical FIRST, and a lawyer SECOND.
I worry that journalism isn't like this at all. People go to school for journalism, then get jobs writing about topics they have NO earthly understanding of. Wouldn't it be better if they had degrees in some sort of actual subject matter, and then learned the journalism on top of it? 
Now, I'm not saying get a 4 year degree and then go to 4 years of J-school, like a patent lawyer. But journalists would be a hell of a lot more useful if they learned a field first and became a journalist second.
(Granted, anyone who got a STEM degree would probably be lured away by big salaries before they became a STEM-focused journalist, so there's a natural barrier in there too.)

847badgerfan

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2018, 03:12:03 PM »
I was just going to say... you wouldn't have many journalists if they actually needed to have education-based knowledge on  what they write.
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rolltidefan

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2018, 03:29:42 PM »
Differing admissions standards from school to school is not fair either.
this is a different argument, besides, those schools are limited themselves, not an outside force (ncaa). same with the scholarship issue. the ncaa has a scholarship limit, some use it to full advantage, others limit themselves as they see fit.
note, i'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not an unfair advantage derived by an outside driving force. it's self-limited.

Anonymous Coward

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2018, 03:32:54 PM »
Pure capitalism doesn't work in sports. That's why every professional league has a draft, has a salary cap, limited roster sizes, etc.
The value of the product depends on some semblance of level competition. Otherwise in the professional leagues, the big-money markets would just pay more to the best players, win every year, increasing their payroll every year as they win more and more, and then ratings would tank because nobody would think it's fair.
Today, college football already has a HUGE natural imbalance, because there's no draft. You get players by recruiting them. That immediately gives a built-in advantage to the helmet teams over non-helmet, to P5 over G5, to G5 over FCS, etc.
Most of the changes we've tried to institute over the course of the history of CFB have been to try to blunt that. Scholarship limits is a huge example of this, because we don't want Michigan and OSU stockpiling all the best players in the midwest so that Purdue and Indiana can't field even remotely competitive teams.
If you start allowing uncontrolled money, you'll see that imbalance get worse.
And if it gets bad enough, eventually it'll destroy the sport.
It is an important note of caution. However, stiffing the players is unsavory too. Between that and the coming legal reckoning for the NCAA, we need to find an acceptable balance. The problem is twofold: no obvious solutions ... and we need to overcome that fast.

847badgerfan

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #62 on: October 25, 2018, 04:09:31 PM »
this is a different argument, besides, those schools are limited themselves, not an outside force (ncaa). same with the scholarship issue. the ncaa has a scholarship limit, some use it to full advantage, others limit themselves as they see fit.
note, i'm not saying it's wrong, but it's not an unfair advantage derived by an outside driving force. it's self-limited.
The premise is that little Johnny really wanted to go to Northwestern to be a Wildcat and play football, but he instead went to Kentucky to be a Wildcat and play football. All because Northwestern wouldn't let him in. NOT FAIR!!!
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847badgerfan

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #63 on: October 25, 2018, 04:11:03 PM »
It is an important note of caution. However, stiffing the players is unsavory too. Between that and the coming legal reckoning for the NCAA, we need to find an acceptable balance. The problem is twofold: no obvious solutions ... and we need to overcome that fast.
An NFL minor league is a completely obvious solution. That, or they all just go to the SEC (that's for you CDawg).
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Cincydawg

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #64 on: October 25, 2018, 04:14:48 PM »
I used to work closely with patent attorneys.  Their "STEM" acumen in the main was rather limited.  And they don't take an extra year of law school.

A person can also become a patent agent without law school.  The only technical difference is you can't litigate in court, which is rare for a patent attorney anyway.  You can file and process patent applications for other folks.

A journalist gets paid to turn out "copy" of one sort or another.  They don't get paid extra for turning out solidly researched accurate copy.

And of course in "STEM" matters, they are largely writing for people without "STEM" backgrounds.

I used to wonder why I had to take so much English and History and SS and languages, while a Social Studies major required virtually no math or science.  I took a class in Astronomy that was filled with education majors.  The good news is that many of them were really good looking, and I almost ended up married to one of them.  The bad news is they needed a lot of help passing the tests.

In the US, almost 70% of HS grads attend college.  In Europe, it's basely half of that.  They stream kids into real college prep early and often.  I fear our egalitarian notions that everyone should go to college and buy a home can get us into trouble at times.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #65 on: October 25, 2018, 04:41:21 PM »
It is an important note of caution. However, stiffing the players is unsavory too. Between that and the coming legal reckoning for the NCAA, we need to find an acceptable balance. The problem is twofold: no obvious solutions ... and we need to overcome that fast.
I'm not saying that stiffing the players is the best option. I think we have a broken system, and as you say, no obvious solutions.
If you make every incoming CFB freshman a "free agent", it'll result in a much more unbalanced system than we have today, because on top of the big helmets already having a recruiting advantage due to their history and helmet, they'll have bigger booster support than your typical mid-tier P5 school. I'll bet Oregon or Oklahoma State will be improved though.
But unless you have a draft for CFB players coming out of high school, which will never happen [and shouldn't IMHO], just adding money is going to screw the less-prominent schools.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #66 on: October 25, 2018, 04:43:18 PM »
I took a class in Astronomy that was filled with education majors.  The good news is that many of them were really good looking, and I almost ended up married to one of them.  The bad news is they needed a lot of help passing the tests.
Well, to be fair I'm sure they were just waiting for their own sign to be covered. 
"What is this crap? When are we going to cover Pisces?"

bayareabadger

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #67 on: October 25, 2018, 04:54:43 PM »
I wish journalism was more like patent law. I.e. to be a patent lawyer, you need to get a degree in STEM, then go to law school, then an additional year of patent law specific schooling. Essentially they assume that to be a patent lawyer, you need to technical FIRST, and a lawyer SECOND.
I worry that journalism isn't like this at all. People go to school for journalism, then get jobs writing about topics they have NO earthly understanding of. Wouldn't it be better if they had degrees in some sort of actual subject matter, and then learned the journalism on top of it?
Now, I'm not saying get a 4 year degree and then go to 4 years of J-school, like a patent lawyer. But journalists would be a hell of a lot more useful if they learned a field first and became a journalist second.
(Granted, anyone who got a STEM degree would probably be lured away by big salaries before they became a STEM-focused journalist, so there's a natural barrier in there too.)
As Badge has pointed out, economics. Journalism doesn’t pay much. If you had to get eight years of school to do it, it would be more of a poor life choice than it is now. 
Now the traditional model is, journalists talk to experts, synthesize and write stories, which means they’re kind of at the mercy of their experts. 
There’s also the issue of a death of trust in expertise. Like if all the sports writers knew a crapload about football, they’d be telling you why much of what you think is the QB’s fault is not the QB’s fault. I’ve seen that story, and most people just get crabby about it and don’t listen. 
(There’s also the issue most journalists are generalists becuase of the structure of the industry. There’s a few science-focused journalists out there, but I can’t comment on their quality) 

rolltidefan

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #68 on: October 25, 2018, 05:52:07 PM »
The premise is that little Johnny really wanted to go to Northwestern to be a Wildcat and play football, but he instead went to Kentucky to be a Wildcat and play football. All because Northwestern wouldn't let him in. NOT FAIR!!!
i wanted to go to alabama and play football. instead i went to alabama and got an accounting degree. not fair, indeed.

FearlessF

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Re: The future of NCAA amateurism
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2018, 05:54:41 PM »
Ed Zachery.  These kids want what's fair?  put down the football and get on with life
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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