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Topic: Texas and OU to where?!?!

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CWSooner

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #350 on: July 28, 2021, 12:36:43 PM »
I don't disagree.  I was even thinking about the differences in Florida from when Bowden became HC to now.  That just makes it hard to analyze FSU because you are basically guessing. 

Ohio State is easy.  There hasn't been much change and among the last six HC's who coached more than one season (leaving Fickell out) the worst win% is .715 by John Cooper.  Most tOSU fans despise Cooper because he was flat terrible against Michigan (2-10-1) and almost as bad in bowls (3-8) but he still won three league titles in 13 years and his record in all games except Michigan and bowls was an impressive 106-25-3 (.802), and he is a member of the HoF along with his successor Jim Tressel and his predecessors Earle Bruce and Woody Hayes.  Urban Meyer will obviously join them there soon and Ryan Day is off to a great start (23-2, .920) in his quest to join them as well. 

Fickell went 6-7 or .462 in one season as Ohio State's HC. Prior to Fickell, the last tOSU HC to finish below .500 was David Farragut Edwards who played at Princeton then coached Ohio State in 1897 and went 1-7-1.  The only other sub .500 coach in tOSU history was Alexander Spinning Lilley who also played at Princeton then went 3-5 as HC for the 1890 and 1891 seasons at Ohio State.
That is a remarkable run of non-suckitude.  Is it more that Ohio State is inherently a place where any competent coach not named Fickell in his first season can drop in and start cranking out winning seasons, or that Ohio State has had preposterously good fortune in choosing head coaches?
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #351 on: July 28, 2021, 01:01:24 PM »
That is a remarkable run of non-suckitude.  Is it more that Ohio State is inherently a place where any competent coach not named Fickell in his first season can drop in and start cranking out winning seasons, or that Ohio State has had preposterously good fortune in choosing head coaches?
First, as we have discussed before, Ohio State is the most consistent of the helmets and by a large margin.  

Second, I didn't want to knock Fickell, I think the circumstances were rough and he was probably not quite ready.  If Tressel had lasted another decade and retired on his own terms then Fickell may very well have seamlessly followed him.  Fickell's success at Cincy lends credence to this theory.  

Finally, I just can't believe that Ohio State has been THAT lucky in coaching hires.  Obviously Hayes, Tressel, and Meyer are all-time greats but I do not think the same of Cooper and Bruce and both of them did very well at Ohio State.  Ultimately I think that Ohio State is in a VERY good situation being the ONLY helmet program in a large population state with a lot of good football recruits.  Thus, a reasonably competent coach should basically go around maybe .700 or better.  

Another interesting past coach of Ohio State is Paul Brown.  I've said before that he was the best coach to ever coach in the league but he isn't even in the top-10 in all-time great coaches in our league, allow me to explain:

IMHO, Paul Brown is the greatest football coach ever (or on the short list for that honor).  They may be mythical, but Paul Brown won FOUR HS NC's before his 33rd birthday.  Then, while still in his early 30's he started coaching Ohio State and promptly led the Buckeyes to their first NC in his second season.  

Had WWII not intervened, Paul Brown may have stayed at Ohio State for decades and would today be viewed as tOSU's Bear or Woody but that didn't happen.  After winning the NC in 1942 Paul Brown's draft (war not NFL) depleted Buckeyes staggered to 3-6 in 1943 and then Paul Brown himself got drafted and spent the next two years coaching Great Lakes Navy which had a pretty good record.  

After the war he took over coaching the Cleveland Browns where he won the AAFC title game his first four years then, after the NFL merger, his Browns teams played in the first six post-merger NFL Championship games (3-3).  They missed the CG in 1956 then lost two more in 1957 and 1958.  

Paul Brown was just a phenomenal football coach at the HS, College, and Professional levels.  However, I think that his short tenure of only three years precludes him from being considered among the greatest coaches in history of the league (or Ohio State for that matter).  

When Paul Brown left Ohio State, Carroll Widdoes replaced him and was seen at the time as a temporary coach just filling the position until Brown's inevitable return.  When Brown didn't return post-war the Buckeyes ended up going through three coaches in seven years before hiring some guy named Woody from Miami, OH for the 1951 season.  

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #352 on: July 28, 2021, 01:05:40 PM »
That is a remarkable run of non-suckitude.  Is it more that Ohio State is inherently a place where any competent coach not named Fickell in his first season can drop in and start cranking out winning seasons, or that Ohio State has had preposterously good fortune in choosing head coaches?


As Texas, Notre Dame, Michigan, Nebraska, Tennessee, Bama, etc have demonstrated time and again, these programs don't run themselves. 

Competent coaching is a mandatory ingredient. 
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Cincydawg

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #353 on: July 28, 2021, 01:10:57 PM »
It amazes me how critical coaching is in CFB.  I think a "reasonably competent" coach can do well at some places and keep the program "at level", but consistent elite performance means the coaching staff is elite.  I don't know of an exception.  And it goes beyond recruiting.

It would be interesting to hear perspective from players who have portaled out about how things are different.

CWSooner

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #354 on: July 28, 2021, 01:15:08 PM »
Thanks for the extended response, Medina.
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utee94

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #355 on: July 28, 2021, 01:21:43 PM »
I like how we're discussing Ohio State's success on the Texas and OU thread, and we're discussing Texas and OU on the B1G Targets for Expansion thread.

Seems like old times.  Sure wish Hooky were here, he'd be pretty amused by all this.


Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #356 on: July 28, 2021, 01:58:17 PM »
What's the end game here? 

Are we going to have a SEC/ACC conglomerate owned by ESPN/Disney, and a Big Ten/Pac 12 conglomerate owned by Fox? Are they going to have two separate playoffs, where maybe the champion of each play one another for the NC? 
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847badgerfan

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #357 on: July 28, 2021, 02:24:08 PM »
What's the end game here?
ESecPN takes Michigan (maybe), PSU and OSU.

Minnie, UW, NU, Purdue and IL (and maybe UM) to the Ivy.
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Gigem

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #358 on: July 28, 2021, 02:25:09 PM »
Well, I don't think there's a "flaw" in medina's thinking, because his conclusion is simply "when you've had one dominant coach for ~30 seasons, it makes it really hard to analyze what will happen in that coach's absence".

He wasn't (as far as I can tell) saying that FSU or VaTech are bad schools to add to the SEC or B1G--he's saying that it's really tough to determine whether the pre-Bowden/Beamer performance is the rule or whether the Bowden/Beamer performance is the rule.

I look at Wisconsin as an example...

Wisconsin football was TERRIBLE for a long time. Barry came in and built a culture, and then moved into the AD role and was able to sustain that culture over multiple successive coaches afterward. It's now been long enough that I believe that Wisconsin (partly as well due to benefits of being the only P5 school in the state and being in the weaker of the two B1G divisions) can sustain that success. That's how I'd bet anyway.

On the opposite side, Wisconsin basketball was equally terrible for a long time. Dick Bennett revived it and set the stage for Bo Ryan, who is probably the best coach Wisconsin has ever had or will ever have. The jury is still out on whether Wisconsin basketball will continue at the sort of high level that Bo Ryan set, but if I had to put money on it I'd say no.
The flaw isn't about how they did under one coach but rather thinking that 40-50 years worth of history is the most relevant factor when clearly things can change a lot in those 40-50 years.  There are so many underlying factors that go into success that you can't really create a formula for it but I think we can all agree that the demographics of the state/institution play a large part.  

Obviously there have been helmets that have lost that status.  Minnesota being one, for whatever reason.  I would say that Tennessee is close, if you considered them a helmet.  Nebraska not quite there yet, but if they continue where they have been the last ~10-20 years they'll be a former helmet in a decade.  
Meanwhile there is a new crop brewing.  Florida/FSU I think is right there, Clemson is at the start.  

Remember, FSU won a MNC without Bowden.  

Gigem

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #359 on: July 28, 2021, 03:19:18 PM »
TCU at least, has proven it can play and win in the postseason against good competition, even while they were still in smaller conferences before they joined the B12. 

The question for me, is how will their recruiting fare, with Texas and Oklahoma leaving for the SEC?

I know I've hammered on this in the past but I disagree WRT TCU.  They've been a B12 team now for 9 seasons and counting.  3 seasons were straight up losing seasons ('13, '16, and '19).  They had 2 seasons that were basically .500 ('12 and '18).  And then 3 decent seasons where they were good ('17,  '15, and '14).  One mediocre .600 season in '20.  Their bowl record is excellent on the other hand, 4-1. 

So 6 seasons out of 9 they've simply been bad to mediocre.  And remember this is in the new Big 12.  No Nebraska on the schedule, no A&M and Missouri, and no CU.  Plus, UT has just finished their worst decade practically ever.  No Leach at TT, and Kansas has been a continual suckathon for 10-15 years.  Hard to remember now but KU won the Orange Bowl with Mangino in the mid 2000's.  So even in a weakened B12 they're really not that great. 

Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow recruiting that closely.  I'm glad when we pick up highly rated players and sad when we lose them, but other than that I don't really pay close attention.  But in that light TCU from what I know and recall almost never has a good to great recruiting class.  They mostly pickup 2-3 * players with a few transfers mixed in and then develop the talent to fit their system.  I know A&M hasn't lost many, if any recruits to them and I'm betting the same for UT. 

I think you're opinion of TCU is skewed by the fact that TCU has made Texas it's whipping boy in the Big 12 (7-2) even in seasons where UT wasn't even that bad.  They made hay as an G5, won the rose bowl during that time sure.  But I think we've seen enough of their on the field play now to realize that they are what some thought they were:  just another middle of the pack school that didn't really do much for the conference outside of win a few minor bowl games and keep things interesting for a bit.  They did enough to get in, and just enough to not be an embarrassment, but not really much else. 

bayareabadger

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #360 on: July 28, 2021, 04:12:34 PM »
ESecPN takes Michigan (maybe), PSU and OSU.

Minnie, UW, NU, Purdue and IL (and maybe UM) to the Ivy.
And 64 random bowl games to play in the background in late December 

utee94

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #361 on: July 28, 2021, 04:25:00 PM »
I know I've hammered on this in the past but I disagree WRT TCU.  They've been a B12 team now for 9 seasons and counting.  3 seasons were straight up losing seasons ('13, '16, and '19).  They had 2 seasons that were basically .500 ('12 and '18).  And then 3 decent seasons where they were good ('17,  '15, and '14).  One mediocre .600 season in '20.  Their bowl record is excellent on the other hand, 4-1. 

So 6 seasons out of 9 they've simply been bad to mediocre.  And remember this is in the new Big 12.  No Nebraska on the schedule, no A&M and Missouri, and no CU.  Plus, UT has just finished their worst decade practically ever.  No Leach at TT, and Kansas has been a continual suckathon for 10-15 years.  Hard to remember now but KU won the Orange Bowl with Mangino in the mid 2000's.  So even in a weakened B12 they're really not that great. 

Now I'll be the first to admit that I don't follow recruiting that closely.  I'm glad when we pick up highly rated players and sad when we lose them, but other than that I don't really pay close attention.  But in that light TCU from what I know and recall almost never has a good to great recruiting class.  They mostly pickup 2-3 * players with a few transfers mixed in and then develop the talent to fit their system.  I know A&M hasn't lost many, if any recruits to them and I'm betting the same for UT. 

I think you're opinion of TCU is skewed by the fact that TCU has made Texas it's whipping boy in the Big 12 (7-2) even in seasons where UT wasn't even that bad.  They made hay as an G5, won the rose bowl during that time sure.  But I think we've seen enough of their on the field play now to realize that they are what some thought they were:  just another middle of the pack school that didn't really do much for the conference outside of win a few minor bowl games and keep things interesting for a bit.  They did enough to get in, and just enough to not be an embarrassment, but not really much else. 

Wow that is a wall of text.  You really hate yourself some TCU. :)


Cincydawg

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #362 on: July 28, 2021, 04:37:49 PM »
TCU is a team I dislike slightly less than Eastern Michigan.

Gigem

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #363 on: July 28, 2021, 04:38:32 PM »
Actually I don't hate them, and actually think they're a great team and accomplished a lot for what they are.  I enjoy watching them play, and I think Gary Patterson has done a good job. 

It's the perception that TCU has been a great addition for the Big 12 that busts my chops LOL.  They've been OK to good. 

 

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