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Topic: Texas and OU to where?!?!
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Temp430 · « **Reply #336 on:** July 28, 2021, 11:36:48 AM »

Quote from: Cincydawg on July 27, 2021, 02:45:18 PM

Bilas suggests huge move for ACC | The Clemson Insider

What if the SEC and ACC basically merge?

I have a hard time seeing Notre Dame being part of an ACC-SEC merger. But they surprised me when they shit canned their tradition of football independence and kinda joined the ACC. It seems to me they would be more at home in a Big Ten - Pac-12 merger given their traditional rivals of Purdue and USC would be in conference.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #337 on:** July 28, 2021, 11:37:18 AM »

Quote from: bayareabadger on July 27, 2021, 11:04:13 PM

I think ISU is different from Clemson and Cincinnati.

Cincy has been some degree of competent for about 25 years and is in a geographically strong spot. Clemson, from the end of the Ford era to when Dabo took off, still won 60 percent of its games (and has a robust payroll)

before Campbell, ISU didn’t have a coach better than 43.2 winning percentage since Earle Bruce

So lets apply @OrangeAfroMan 's patented(kidding) analysis) to Clemson and Cincy:
Years, name, win%:
Clemson:

13 Swinney .813
10 Bowden .615
6 West .525
4 Hatfield .707
12 Ford .760
2 Pell .804
4 Parker .409
3 Ingram .364
30 Howard .580

That goes all the way back to ~80 years ago. Bowden and West (1993-2008) are significantly sub-elite. Other than that, Pell forward (so 1977-present) look pretty good. I'm still not completely convinced that they have the staying power to maintain their current status or anything reasonably close to it.

Cincinnati:

4 Fickell .729
4 Tuberville .569
3 Jones .622
4 Kelly .850
3 Dantonio .514
10 Minter .457
5 Murphy .318
5 Currey .345
1 Brown .409
2 Gottfried .545
4 Staub .341
4 Mason .591
4 Callahan .465
2 Rice .447
7 Studley .450

Starting with Dantonio they have been pretty competent but that is only five coaches and:

Dantonio was an absolute legend at MSU, future HoFer
Kelly left for ND where he is doing better than any ND coach in a long time, future HoFer
Jones is maybe the outlier and even he went on to HC at Tennesse then onto Saban's staff
Tuberville had an undefeated season in the SEC and won multiple SEC-W titles
Fickell absolutely sucked at Ohio State. He had seven losses in his one season at a school whose most losses since the 2002 season are four in 2004, and three in 2008. That said the circumstances weren't great for him coming off of the scandal and following a legend and maybe he just was unlucky or unready?

Is Cincinnati truly solid as a program or have they just been uncannily lucky with their last five coaching hires?

utee94 · « **Reply #338 on:** July 28, 2021, 11:38:00 AM »

Quote from: ELA on July 28, 2021, 11:34:52 AM

It's going to render the playoff even more meaningless. Cool, you get a bunch of SEC rematches; with maybe OSU thrown in, then a bloated Big XII and Pac 12 champ? Can't wait.

If it makes the playoff meaningless, then arguably it's making the regular season more meaningful again. If "win your conference" is harder than "win the national playoff" then that's the thing that matters, right?

I'm mostly kidding here, of course.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #339 on:** July 28, 2021, 11:42:40 AM »

Quote from: CWSooner on July 27, 2021, 05:55:42 PM

I think that the Big 12 can survive--and even get somewhat better--if the remaining members behave the way they wish OU and Texas had, by sticking together. They can poach the best two or four mid-majors between the Appalachians and the Rockies and be OK.

This is my thinking. If they stick together and make solid additions they have a very good chance to become the "Best of the Rest" after the four (or less) remaining power leagues.

With an expanded CFP that will probably get them a CFP berth more often than not. Realistically that will probably just mean that their champion will get obliterated in a road game in mid-December against a Helmet team but at least they'll get there.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #340 on:** July 28, 2021, 11:55:23 AM »

Quote from: Gigem on July 28, 2021, 11:34:28 AM

The flaw in this line of thinking is that the state of the university, state, region, and fan base is static. It's not the case. So for example if you look at FSU they were an all women's college until the 50's and generally did not really resemble what they are today until the 70's and 80's, which is coincidentally when Bowden became coach. As discussed previously the state of Florida did not exceed the population of the state of Ohio until 1990 but now is much more populous and in fact about double that of Ohio. For Ohio, I'm inclined to believe that their university, state, region, and fan base is much more static. In other words, the population of the state probably will not dramatically grow, the attendance of the univeristy probably will not increase, and thus the fan base will not grow or increase either. Now, we all know OSU has a strong fanbase and support throughout the state, their helmet status is safely intact.

On the other hand look at Nebraska. Population has increased some, but still small by state standards (less than 2 million). What is the odds they can climb back up the ladder to elite status, espeically now that the Big 10 has so much more competition than the old Big 8/Big 12. Will they be able to get the type of recruits there to put the program back on the map? And how much longer will you regard Nebraska a helmet team but now Florida/FSU and Clemson?

I don't disagree. I was even thinking about the differences in Florida from when Bowden became HC to now. That just makes it hard to analyze FSU because you are basically guessing.

Ohio State is easy. There hasn't been much change and among the last six HC's who coached more than one season (leaving Fickell out) the worst win% is .715 by John Cooper. Most tOSU fans despise Cooper because he was flat terrible against Michigan (2-10-1) and almost as bad in bowls (3-8) but he still won three league titles in 13 years and his record in all games except Michigan and bowls was an impressive 106-25-3 (.802), and he is a member of the HoF along with his successor Jim Tressel and his predecessors Earle Bruce and Woody Hayes. Urban Meyer will obviously join them there soon and Ryan Day is off to a great start (23-2, .920) in his quest to join them as well.

Fickell went 6-7 or .462 in one season as Ohio State's HC. Prior to Fickell, the last tOSU HC to finish below .500 was David Farragut Edwards who played at Princeton then coached Ohio State in 1897 and went 1-7-1. The only other sub .500 coach in tOSU history was Alexander Spinning Lilley who also played at Princeton then went 3-5 as HC for the 1890 and 1891 seasons at Ohio State.

utee94 · « **Reply #341 on:** July 28, 2021, 11:59:54 AM »

Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 28, 2021, 11:42:40 AM

This is my thinking. If they stick together and make solid additions they have a very good chance to become the "Best of the Rest" after the four (or less) remaining power leagues.

With an expanded CFP that will probably get them a CFP berth more often than not. Realistically that will probably just mean that their champion will get obliterated in a road game in mid-December against a Helmet team but at least they'll get there.

TCU at least, has proven it can play and win in the postseason against good competition, even while they were still in smaller conferences before they joined the B12.

The question for me, is how will their recruiting fare, with Texas and Oklahoma leaving for the SEC?

Right now I think one big winner in all of this, will be Arkansas. They're going to have increased recruiting exposure in the state of Texas. But their success is going to come at the expense of some of the smaller Texas schools. Baylor, TCU, SMU, Houston-- all of these schools still manage to land some top recruits, based on proximity, exposure, access. The pigs are probably not going to recruit significantly better directly against Texas and OU than they currently do. But they do stand to make some gains against other Texas-based programs now, IMO.

Temp430 · « **Reply #342 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:00:25 PM »

Who do they want running college athletics? ESPN and the other networks? University Presidents and ADs should think about that.

medinabuckeye1 · « **Reply #343 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:08:43 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2021, 07:08:16 AM

Win 9. Lose 2. Lose Rose Bowl.

GREAT!!

You will not see this very often so enjoy it but I, a guy who bleeds Scarlet and Gray am about to defend Schembechler/Michigan:

In his first year as HC at Michigan, Glenn Edward Schembechler after arriving from Miami, OH went 8-3. He started slow, 3-2 with losses to a very good Mizzou squad (Mizzou won the Big8 losing only at Colorado and in the Orange Bowl to undefeated PSU) and also to a bad MSU team. Then he won five straight including a MONUMENTAL upset of undefeated, #1 ranked, and defending NC Ohio State before falling in the Rose Bowl to USC. After that he finished the regular season with one or less losses every year through 1978:

1970: 9-1, lost to tOSU
1971: 11-0, lost RB to Stanford
1972: 10-1, lost to tOSU
1973: 10-0-1, tied tOSU
1974: 10-1, lost to tOSU
1975: 8-1-2, lost to tOSU, tied Stanford and Baylor, lost OB to OU
1976: 10-1, lost to Purdue, lost RB to USC
1977: 10-1, lost to Minnesota, lost RB to Washington
1978: 10-1, lost to MSU, lost RB to USC

Bo's catastrophically bad bowl record (he lost his first seven and ended up 5-12 in bowls and 2-8 in Rose Bowls) definitely detracts from his national reputation (and cost the Wolverines multiple NC's) but Bo was phenomenal in the 1970's.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #344 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:19:02 PM »

Quote from: Gigem on July 28, 2021, 11:34:28 AM

The flaw in this line of thinking is that the state of the university, state, region, and fan base is static. It's not the case. So for example if you look at FSU they were an all women's college until the 50's and generally did not really resemble what they are today until the 70's and 80's, which is coincidentally when Bowden became coach. As discussed previously the state of Florida did not exceed the population of the state of Ohio until 1990 but now is much more populous and in fact about double that of Ohio. For Ohio, I'm inclined to believe that their university, state, region, and fan base is much more static. In other words, the population of the state probably will not dramatically grow, the attendance of the univeristy probably will not increase, and thus the fan base will not grow or increase either. Now, we all know OSU has a strong fanbase and support throughout the state, their helmet status is safely intact.

On the other hand look at Nebraska. Population has increased some, but still small by state standards (less than 2 million). What is the odds they can climb back up the ladder to elite status, espeically now that the Big 10 has so much more competition than the old Big 8/Big 12. Will they be able to get the type of recruits there to put the program back on the map? And how much longer will you regard Nebraska a helmet team but now Florida/FSU and Clemson?

Well, I don't think there's a "flaw" in medina's thinking, because his conclusion is simply "when you've had one dominant coach for ~30 seasons, it makes it really hard to analyze what will happen in that coach's absence".

He wasn't (as far as I can tell) saying that FSU or VaTech are bad schools to add to the SEC or B1G--he's saying that it's really tough to determine whether the pre-Bowden/Beamer performance is the rule or whether the Bowden/Beamer performance is the rule.

I look at Wisconsin as an example...

Wisconsin football was TERRIBLE for a long time. Barry came in and built a culture, and then moved into the AD role and was able to sustain that culture over multiple successive coaches afterward. It's now been long enough that I believe that Wisconsin (partly as well due to benefits of being the only P5 school in the state and being in the weaker of the two B1G divisions) can sustain that success. That's how I'd bet anyway.

On the opposite side, Wisconsin basketball was equally terrible for a long time. Dick Bennett revived it and set the stage for Bo Ryan, who is probably the best coach Wisconsin has ever had or will ever have. The jury is still out on whether Wisconsin basketball will continue at the sort of high level that Bo Ryan set, but if I had to put money on it I'd say no.

CWSooner · « **Reply #345 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:22:52 PM »

Quote from: Gigem on July 28, 2021, 11:15:06 AM

https://www.oklahoman.com/story/opinion/2021/07/27/bob-stoops-oklahoma-sec-decision-leave-big-12-southeastern-conference/5390626001/

There’s been extensive discussion in the state of Oklahoma about OU and Texas moving from the Big 12 to the Southeastern Conference. I believe this is a good and necessary move for the future of our school and football program. I disagree with any claims asserted that OU’s decision is “to the detriment of the State of Oklahoma,” and that OU made it without “engagement and transparency.”
Let’s set the record straight: OU’s move to the SEC is what’s best for Oklahoma. The reality is that conferences are now more important than ever and, with limited spots, the strongest conferences would not accept OU if we were to require OSU to join as well. By joining the SEC, we ensure the state’s flagship university will be represented nationally while protecting our rich football history for many years to come. To move forward in any other manner would be to the detriment of OU and the state of Oklahoma.

The advantages are many — greater financial opportunities, better exposure, stronger recruiting and increased competition. Playing in front of full, huge stadiums will be attractive to our players, recruits, and our supportive fans. OU will be competing at the highest level of college football, which is exactly where we should be. I can’t wait for SEC programs to face our teams and our fans — I think both are the best in the country.

Just to be clear, that statement was from Bob Stoops. Officially, he's just speaking for himself. Unofficially, this is OU's rebuttal to the oSu president who has issued several bitter comments about the betrayal. Actually, some similarities to early angry statements from Texas A&M, but she has kept at it.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #346 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:24:35 PM »

Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on July 28, 2021, 11:37:18 AM

So lets apply @OrangeAfroMan 's patented(kidding) analysis) to Clemson and Cincy:

One caveat is that Clemson was doing all of this in a stronger conference than Cincy.

So although some of Cincy's win% look pretty good, it's partly the result of being a moderately dangerous fish in a small pond full of minnows.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #347 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:27:59 PM »

One issue I see with expanding to the PAC schools... How does help recruiting for the traditional B1G?

I don't see a lot of SoCal players wanting to uproot themselves to go play a fall/winter sport in Minneapolis or Madison.

I could see a lot of players in Minneapolis or Madison jumping at the chance to play on the west coast, especially when they know they'll be coming back to the Midwest a few times a year and their families can see them play.

One official visit to campus in November or February to see the girls at USC or UCLA and I'm guessing a Midwest recruit will start thinking that maybe they don't need to stay close to home?

847badgerfan · « **Reply #348 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:28:36 PM »

Quote from: betarhoalphadelta on July 28, 2021, 12:19:02 PM

On the opposite side, Wisconsin basketball was equally terrible for a long time. Dick Bennett revived it and set the stage for Bo Ryan, who is probably the best coach Wisconsin has ever had or will ever have. The jury is still out on whether Wisconsin basketball will continue at the sort of high level that Bo Ryan set, but if I had to put money on it I'd say no.

Pat Richter revived it when he hired Stu Jackson.

betarhoalphadelta · « **Reply #349 on:** July 28, 2021, 12:34:40 PM »

Quote from: 847badgerfan on July 28, 2021, 12:28:36 PM

Pat Richter revived it when he hired Stu Jackson.

Ok... A guy who only coached there for two years, had <.500 conference records both years, but did well enough to make it to the NIT one year and the NCAAT the second.

Sorry, not a long enough or impressive enough sample size to say he "revived" the program.

Maybe he brought in some recruits that Bennett then was able to help flourish, but 2 years is too short to say he was the one who revive it.

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Topic: Texas and OU to where?!?!

Temp430

Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!

medinabuckeye1

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utee94

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medinabuckeye1

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medinabuckeye1

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utee94

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Temp430

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medinabuckeye1

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betarhoalphadelta

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CWSooner

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betarhoalphadelta

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betarhoalphadelta

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847badgerfan

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betarhoalphadelta

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