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Topic: Texas and OU to where?!?!

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #322 on: July 27, 2021, 11:15:29 PM »
I agree that you can't just look at how a program did last year.
But how far back do you go to get that "average"?  Does how a program did in 1920 have just as much weight as how it did in 2020?
For me, it's coaching changes.  
No, do not go back 100 years.  There isn't one "right" number of years, it's until you get a trend line.  
Iowa State's....let's say last 5 HCs:
Seasons - Name - win%
6 - Campbell - .556
7 - Rhodes - .368
2 - Chizik - .208
12 - McCarney - .397
8 - Walden - .335
Okay, that's five HCs covering 35 years.  That's plenty of data.  What do we end up with?  An average win% of .390.  
That's what Iowa State football is.  .390.  That's what you'd be adding.  
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Thumper

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #323 on: July 27, 2021, 11:32:11 PM »
In 2010 the B12 offered to give additional shares of the Nebraska/Colorado exit penalty money to UT, OU, and A&M. UT and OU declined.  A&M was the only school that accepted the additional share of exit penalty money, and then departed the next year anyway.

Thanks, Utee.  I had forgotten this.  I remember I felt proud when OU and UT declined and really ticked that A&M took it.

847badgerfan

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #324 on: July 28, 2021, 07:08:16 AM »
Agreed.  I mentioned this upthread in regard to Clemson.  My big fear in adding them would be that if they go back to pre-Dabo Clemson, are they worth it?No, but Clemson and ISU (two example that @OrangeAfroMan used) have been talked about.  This is a balancing act because you are trying to project the future based on the past.  Clearly Minnesota's great years and NC's back before WWII are basically irrelevant.  OTOH, I'm not completely sure that Michigan's great years under Bo ~50 years ago are irrelevant.  Somewhere in there is your projection. 
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Mdot21

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #325 on: July 28, 2021, 09:49:48 AM »
Kudos to the SEC. SEC/B1G were duking it out for ratings/money supremacy. They just lapped the B1G with these additions. By A LOT. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #326 on: July 28, 2021, 09:57:01 AM »
Warren got schooled on this one.
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utee94

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #327 on: July 28, 2021, 10:04:16 AM »
Warren got schooled on this one.
And he shattered our dreams of Badger-Longhorn conference games!

Thumper

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #328 on: July 28, 2021, 10:28:06 AM »
Kudos to the SEC. SEC/B1G were duking it out for ratings/money supremacy. They just lapped the B1G with these additions. By A LOT.
From all indications the SEC isn't done adding teams.  The SEC/ESPN contract allows them to add teams from an "A-list" prorata
The SEC/ESPN contract allows them to add teams from an "A-list" prorata. Should any conference feel secure that they won't get Big 12'd?  The ACC should feel very vulnerable, maybe the PAC.  If that happened the B1G could not catch up. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #329 on: July 28, 2021, 11:12:59 AM »
The Big Ten already can't catch up. 

USC and Notre Dame is the best scenario outside of the absolutely absurd, and it isn't going to be USC and Notre Dame. 
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #330 on: July 28, 2021, 11:14:29 AM »
For me, it's coaching changes. 
No, do not go back 100 years.  There isn't one "right" number of years, it's until you get a trend line. 
Iowa State's....let's say last 5 HCs:
Seasons - Name - win%
6 - Campbell - .556
7 - Rhodes - .368
2 - Chizik - .208
12 - McCarney - .397
8 - Walden - .335
Okay, that's five HCs covering 35 years.  That's plenty of data.  What do we end up with?  An average win% of .390. 
That's what Iowa State football is.  .390.  That's what you'd be adding. 
I agree that this is generally the correct way to conduct this analysis.  The major potential complication is a situation like FSU or VaTech where you had one guy who did REALLY well and coached for a REALLY long time:

Florida State:
  • 1 Norvell .333
  • 2 Taggart .429
  • 2/3 Haggins .667
  • 8 Fisher .783
  • 34 Bowden .756
  • 2 Murda .182
  • 3 Jones .441
  • 11 Peterson .587

The problem here is that Murda was almost 50 years ago so basically everyone pre-Bowden is too long ago to be significantly relevant.  When Bowden left he had coached the Seminoles for 34 years while their other nine coaches had coached them for 32.  Even now Bowden coached the Seminoles for 34 of their last 45 years so you really don't have much data outside of Bowden.  Bowden is an all-time great and maybe nobody else will ever get FSU anywhere close to that level or maybe FSU as a program is strong enough that future coaches will get to or at least approach Bowden-level success.  It is hard to tell.  

VaTech:
  • 5 Fuente .704
  • 29 Beamer .655
  • 9 Dooley .632
  • 4 Sharpe .489
  • 3 Coffey .379
  • 10 Claiborne .608

Similarly, Dooley was about 40 years ago, Sharpe was close to 50 years ago, and the rest were even further back so basically everyone pre-Beamer is probably not relevant.  That only leaves you with Beamer and Fuente which isn't much data to go on.  Basically the entirety of VaTech's relevant history is with Frank Beamer at the helm so who knows how that should be evaluated.  Beamer, like Bowden is an all-time great.  Fuente's win% is actually better than Beamer's so far but the Hokies haven't been as relevant under Fuente as we were accustomed to them being under Beamer so . . .  

Gigem

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #331 on: July 28, 2021, 11:15:06 AM »
https://www.oklahoman.com/story/opinion/2021/07/27/bob-stoops-oklahoma-sec-decision-leave-big-12-southeastern-conference/5390626001/

There’s been extensive discussion in the state of Oklahoma about OU and Texas moving from the Big 12 to the Southeastern Conference. I believe this is a good and necessary move for the future of our school and football program. I disagree with any claims asserted that OU’s decision is “to the detriment of the State of Oklahoma,” and that OU made it without “engagement and transparency.”
Let’s set the record straight: OU’s move to the SEC is what’s best for Oklahoma. The reality is that conferences are now more important than ever and, with limited spots, the strongest conferences would not accept OU if we were to require OSU to join as well. By joining the SEC, we ensure the state’s flagship university will be represented nationally while protecting our rich football history for many years to come. To move forward in any other manner would be to the detriment of OU and the state of Oklahoma.

The advantages are many — greater financial opportunities, better exposure, stronger recruiting and increased competition. Playing in front of full, huge stadiums will be attractive to our players, recruits, and our supportive fans. OU will be competing at the highest level of college football, which is exactly where we should be. I can’t wait for SEC programs to face our teams and our fans — I think both are the best in the country.



medinabuckeye1

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #332 on: July 28, 2021, 11:18:45 AM »
The Big Ten already can't catch up.

USC and Notre Dame is the best scenario outside of the absolutely absurd, and it isn't going to be USC and Notre Dame.
Even if it is USC, Oregon, Washington, Colorado, and Notre Dame (plus one to get to 20) I don't think that actually catches the new SEC, it just stays reasonably close.  

Temp430

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #333 on: July 28, 2021, 11:21:20 AM »
What happens when you stick a bunch of "helmet" teams like Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, etc. in one "super" conference?  Their W-L records are going to take a hit on average.  I get that a lot of this is driven by network TV deals but win/loss records are important when it comes to playoff and bowl selection.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 11:31:52 AM by Temp430 »
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Gigem

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #334 on: July 28, 2021, 11:34:28 AM »
I agree that this is generally the correct way to conduct this analysis.  The major potential complication is a situation like FSU or VaTech where you had one guy who did REALLY well and coached for a REALLY long time:

Florida State:
  • 1 Norvell .333
  • 2 Taggart .429
  • 2/3 Haggins .667
  • 8 Fisher .783
  • 34 Bowden .756
  • 2 Murda .182
  • 3 Jones .441
  • 11 Peterson .587

The problem here is that Murda was almost 50 years ago so basically everyone pre-Bowden is too long ago to be significantly relevant.  When Bowden left he had coached the Seminoles for 34 years while their other nine coaches had coached them for 32.  Even now Bowden coached the Seminoles for 34 of their last 45 years so you really don't have much data outside of Bowden.  Bowden is an all-time great and maybe nobody else will ever get FSU anywhere close to that level or maybe FSU as a program is strong enough that future coaches will get to or at least approach Bowden-level success.  It is hard to tell. 

VaTech:
  • 5 Fuente .704
  • 29 Beamer .655
  • 9 Dooley .632
  • 4 Sharpe .489
  • 3 Coffey .379
  • 10 Claiborne .608

Similarly, Dooley was about 40 years ago, Sharpe was close to 50 years ago, and the rest were even further back so basically everyone pre-Beamer is probably not relevant.  That only leaves you with Beamer and Fuente which isn't much data to go on.  Basically the entirety of VaTech's relevant history is with Frank Beamer at the helm so who knows how that should be evaluated.  Beamer, like Bowden is an all-time great.  Fuente's win% is actually better than Beamer's so far but the Hokies haven't been as relevant under Fuente as we were accustomed to them being under Beamer so . . . 

The flaw in this line of thinking is that the state of the university, state, region, and fan base is static.  It's not the case.  So for example if you look at FSU they were an all women's college until the 50's and generally did not really resemble what they are today until the 70's and 80's, which is coincidentally when Bowden became coach.  As discussed previously the state of Florida did not exceed the population of the state of Ohio until 1990 but now is much more populous and in fact about double that of Ohio.  For Ohio, I'm inclined to believe that their university, state, region, and fan base is much more static.  In other words, the population of the state probably will not dramatically grow, the attendance of the  univeristy probably will not increase, and thus the fan base will not grow or increase either.  Now, we all know OSU has a strong fanbase and support throughout the state, their helmet status is safely intact.  

On the other hand look at Nebraska.  Population has increased some, but still small by state standards (less than 2 million).  What is the odds they can climb back up the ladder to elite status, espeically now that the Big 10 has so much more competition than the old Big 8/Big 12.  Will they be able to get the type of recruits there to put the program back on the map?  And how much longer will you regard Nebraska a helmet team but now Florida/FSU and Clemson?  




ELA

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Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #335 on: July 28, 2021, 11:34:52 AM »
What happens when you stick a bunch of "helmet" teams like Texas, Oklahoma, Alabama, LSU, Georgia, Florida, etc. in one "super" conference?  Their W-L records are going to take a hit on average.  I get that a lot of this is driven by network TV deals but win/loss records are important when it comes to playoff and bowl selection.
It's going to render the playoff even more meaningless.  Cool, you get a bunch of SEC rematches; with maybe OSU thrown in, then a bloated Big XII and Pac 12 champ?  Can't wait.

 

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