header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Texas and OU to where?!?!

 (Read 24387 times)

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6065
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #602 on: August 13, 2021, 11:03:57 AM »
I found it interesting, and rather complicated.  But that stands to reason.  I suppose every helo in the world has standardized on those control parameters.

I'd guess even an ultralight AC has the same basic control features as a Cessna, as does a 747.

I watch videos at times of a commercial heavy landing at some airport, apparently today they enter the desired altitude digitally on the panel and the plane goes there.

And you apparently can land an F-18 on a carrier deck hands off.

The next gen of military AC likely will not have a human pilot, or you might have one piloted AC in a group of say 8 drones he controls.

Automation is really amazing today.  That could be the barrier to having flying cars.  There are others of course.
French helicopters have the main rotor going clockwise, so anything I said above about left and right should be reversed for a discussion of them.
Play Like a Champion Today

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12292
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #603 on: August 13, 2021, 12:45:40 PM »
Heh!  As you know, a CH-53 is a monster of a helicopter.
Most of my time was at the opposite end of the spectrum--OH-58 Scouts (very similar to a Bell Jet Ranger), UH-1 Hueys (in flight school and during my year as a "staff aviator" in Korea, and AH-64 Apaches.  The Apache was the biggest, and IIRC, we usually flew it weighing about 16,000 lbs at takeoff.  The CH-53E has a max gross weight of 73,500 lbs.  Going from an OH-58 to that would be like going from an Mazda Miata to a Kenworth hauling two trailers.
What I found interesting is that the CH-53 is one of the fastest helicopters in existence as well, because it's a 7-blade rotor. 

In forward flight, the faster you go the closer you get to rotors on the trailing side (moving opposite direction of travel) stalling out while the rotors on the leading side being the only ones that can continue producing lift. The 53, with 7 blades, can mitigate that at a high airspeed better than perhaps an Apache with only two rotor blades.  

At least that's how I understand it--feel free to correct me if it's bullsh!t ;-) 

Automation is really amazing today.  That could be the barrier to having flying cars.  There are others of course.

The primary, and by FAR the most important, is simple energy efficiency.

A car on the road requires no application of energy to keep from falling into the earth. The mass of the car pushes it into the ground and the planet pushes back, and all is balanced. Turn off the engine, and nothing happens. The energy of the car can thus be used entirely for propulsion.

A car in the air cannot remain aloft without the addition of power. The air doesn't provide meaningful resistance to the force of gravity. Turn off the engine, and it plummets until it reaches stasis (where it hits the ground and the force of gravity is balanced by the earth). Thus, the energy of the car must be used for both proportion and lift. 

We will not have flying cars until and unless we find some zero-cost or minimal-cost energy source such that ALL that additional energy to create lift is free or basically free. 

I don't see even theoretical sources of energy like this on the horizon.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72049
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #604 on: August 13, 2021, 12:53:07 PM »
One problem with flying cars simply is air space management and deconfliction, automation solves that potentially.  I still think you're better off today with a true airplane and a true car.  Imagine designing an airplace/car to meet crash test requirements.

I was piloting a Cessna when the single engine failed, you have pretty decent glide time even at 900 feet up where I was.

Brutus Buckeye

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 11251
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #605 on: August 13, 2021, 01:31:55 PM »
The flying Delorean could never happen in the post 911 era. 

Probably for the better, as a mere fender bender could result it two cars just dropping down into the city. 
1919, 20, 21, 28, 29, 31, 34, 35, 36, 37, 42, 44
WWH: 1952, 54, 55, 57, 58, 60, 61, 62, 63, 65, 67, 68, 70, 72, 74, 75
1979, 81, 82, 84, 87, 94, 98
2001, 02, 04, 05, 06, 07, 08, 09, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12292
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #606 on: August 13, 2021, 01:46:50 PM »
One problem with flying cars simply is air space management and deconfliction, automation solves that potentially.  I still think you're better off today with a true airplane and a true car.  Imagine designing an airplace/car to meet crash test requirements.

I was piloting a Cessna when the single engine failed, you have pretty decent glide time even at 900 feet up where I was.
All valid, and I do agree that automation could potentially solve some of the airspace management issues that would assuredly arise.

But I stand by my point--those are secondary or tertiary issues to the energy efficiency problem. 

I don't know if things have changed much, but I found a 1980 Cessna 152 manual that says it will travel 380 NM on 24.5 gal of fuel while cruising at 75% power at 8000 ft. That's 437 miles, or 17.8 mpg. That's a two-seater. A 172 will go 485 NM on 40 gal fuel, so if you want a 4-seater you get 14 mpg.

My giant beast of a Ford Flex will seat 7 and gets ~23-24 mpg on the highway (supposedly 28 mpg, but I've never seen it personally). Supposedly a Rav4 Hybrid will get you 38 mpg on the highway. If you want to compare the 152, the comparison would probably be a Prius; up to 53 mpg highway.

Obviously the airplane doesn't have to follow the road, so in many cases it might be a shorter trip. And they have other advantages; a car cannot legally travel faster than 70 mph in most cases, whereas the 172 will be able to comfortably cruise at 140 mph airspeed (ground speed obviously depends on wind direction). 

So you look at the most successful light aircraft in existence, which are designed and built to be aircraft and not flying cars, and they're half as efficient or worse on miles per gallon than current automotive technology, while also being subject to very stringent weight and loading requirements that a Prius or Rav4 is not.

Sort out all the automation and safety issues you want, but they won't be successful until/unless you can solve that energy problem. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72049
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #607 on: August 13, 2021, 02:52:18 PM »
The other problem with a 172 is that while it has four seats, it you put 4 200 pounders in them, you probably are over the weight limit, not to mention luggage.  You can compensate by loading less fuel if you wish.  Now, those engines are archaic, magnetos, two spark plugs per cylinder, ours were carbureated, the newer ones have FI and electronic ignition at least.  They are also large boxer 4 cylinder engines with two valves per cylinder burning rather expensive 100 LL av gas.  One can get better more efficient engines.

BUT, the purpose of the wing is to convert drag into lift, which is to your point.  You have to have lift, and it comes from drag, in a piston engined plane.

A Mooney is a nicer plane, but far more expensive.  A car-plane duo will always be more effective I think.


betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12292
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #608 on: August 13, 2021, 03:14:50 PM »
The other problem with a 172 is that while it has four seats, it you put 4 200 pounders in them, you probably are over the weight limit, not to mention luggage.  You can compensate by loading less fuel if you wish.  Now, those engines are archaic, magnetos, two spark plugs per cylinder, ours were carbureated, the newer ones have FI and electronic ignition at least.  They are also large boxer 4 cylinder engines with two valves per cylinder burning rather expensive 100 LL av gas.  One can get better more efficient engines.

BUT, the purpose of the wing is to convert drag into lift, which is to your point.  You have to have lift, and it comes from drag, in a piston engined plane.

A Mooney is a nicer plane, but far more expensive.  A car-plane duo will always be more effective I think.
Thanks for giving me an example of something newer. I know throwing out specs of 40 year old aircraft may not be the best...

So I looked up the Mooney M20TN Acclaim, apparently released in 2006. For the low, low price of $599,900 lol... It's got retractable landing gear, so that should help with drag.

And you can fit four 250# adults in there to meet the load limit of 1000 lbs (but no luggage). Spacious!

Cruising speed at 75% power of 237 KIAS. Fuel consumption of 22 gph. Now we're down to 12.4 mpg, so efficiency has gone down. 

Obviously that's due to drag increasing at higher airspeed proportional to velocity squared, so every additional knot of airspeed adds more than one knot's worth of drag, as the Mooney travels at twice the airspeed of the 172.

But the comparison as performance goes up is that efficiency goes down. Which of course is expected--driving a Ferrari at 130 mph is a lot less efficient than a Prius at 70 mph...

But they're all subject to the fundamental laws of physics, and an airplane generating lift from drag is less energy-efficient of a means of transportation than just dealing with aerodynamic drag and rolling friction of a car. 

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72049
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #609 on: August 13, 2021, 03:57:55 PM »
Mooneys are nice planes, really nice.  $$$$  And 237 KIAS is pretty fast and you pay for that speed.  You can't do that on the ground very well.  That is 273 mph.

I contracted a professor at U Akron to consult with us and he flew down in a King Air twin, and that afternoon he let me "fly" it a bit.  I got him lined up when we came back with Blue Ask airport but was WAY too high.  A Cessna 172 will float a good bit, he cut power and we dropped like a rock.

The way to lose altitude in a Cessna is either to slip it, turn it sideways, or drop the flaps and point the nose down, but not both at the same time, he just cut power.  Twins are very expensive to operate, and you need twin engine cert.  This is why airlines like Navy aviators over AF pilots.

Do you know why they use knots for ships and planes?


CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6065
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #610 on: August 13, 2021, 04:59:16 PM »
What I found interesting is that the CH-53 is one of the fastest helicopters in existence as well, because it's a 7-blade rotor.

In forward flight, the faster you go the closer you get to rotors on the trailing side (moving opposite direction of travel) stalling out while the rotors on the leading side being the only ones that can continue producing lift. The 53, with 7 blades, can mitigate that at a high airspeed better than perhaps an Apache with only two rotor blades. 

At least that's how I understand it--feel free to correct me if it's bullsh!t ;-)
It's B.S.  I'll get back later; gotta leave the 'puter right now.
Play Like a Champion Today

betarhoalphadelta

  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 12292
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #611 on: August 13, 2021, 05:11:45 PM »

Do you know why they use knots for ships and planes?
No, but wikipedia did lol...

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 72049
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #612 on: August 13, 2021, 05:30:16 PM »
Yeah, it's a bit interesting I think.

All the air speed indicators, and probably water speed as well, are in knots.  There is a yellow range, at least on a Cessna, and a red range, which is called "DO NOT EXCEED".

I accepted their word for it.

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6065
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #613 on: August 13, 2021, 06:06:33 PM »
What I found interesting is that the CH-53 is one of the fastest helicopters in existence as well, because it's a 7-blade rotor.

In forward flight, the faster you go the closer you get to rotors on the trailing side (moving opposite direction of travel) stalling out while the rotors on the leading side being the only ones that can continue producing lift. The 53, with 7 blades, can mitigate that at a high airspeed better than perhaps an Apache with only two rotor blades. 

At least that's how I understand it--feel free to correct me if it's bullsh!t ;-)
OK, here we go.
"B.S." is not quite right, as I will try to explain.
Retreating blade stall is the limiting factor on airspeed for a helicopter.
As you noted, the blade as it retreats has less airspeed.  In fact, as soon as you start directional flight, the root of the retreating blade stops producing lift.  The compensation is that the flight controls are rigged to increase the pitch of the retreating blade as the cyclic is pushed away from neutral.  (I'll use "forward" as the example, but the same thing happens to the rotor disc if you are flying sideways or rearward.  BTW, I left out the term "feathering" in my lengthy post on this subject.  That refers to the rotor blades changing pitch.)
So, the faster you go, the further out on the retreating blade there is no lift being produced, requiring ever more pitch increase to produce the same amount of the lift that the advancing blade produces, and eventually there will not be enough and the helicopter will go out of control.  The highest airspeed that the helicopter can fly without this happening (minus a bit for a safety cushion) is Vne, Velocity Not to Exceed.
So, you know all that, more or less.
But that happens whether you have 1 blade (plus a counterweight), 2 blades (like a Huey), 3 blades (like Sikorskys of the 1950s), 4 blades (like an Apache) 5 blades (like the pre-"E" model CH-53s, or the 7 blades of a CH-53E.  The retreating side of the rotor disc is still working with high blade angles of attack to produce enough lift to balance the lift being produced by the advancing side.
What I think the advantage of having lots of blades is that they smooth out the felt impulses of each blade going from high airspeed/low AoA to low airspeed/high AOA.  I suspect also is that the blades on the CH-53 are designed to function well at high AoA.
The real fix is to have co-axial, counter-rotating rotors on the same rotor shaft.  That way you have advancing sides and retreating sides cancelling each other out.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 09:31:41 PM by CWSooner »
Play Like a Champion Today

OrangeAfroMan

  • Stats Porn
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 18937
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #614 on: August 13, 2021, 07:22:30 PM »
The flying Delorean could never happen in the post 911 era.

Probably for the better, as a mere fender bender could result it two cars just dropping down into the city.
Yeah, I don't trust other drivers on a 2-dimensional plane, much less in 3-D.  We'd be cubing the potential number of deaths by a DUI.  Not a great call.
.
Until 40 year old men stop driving like they're 14 and old ladies stop driving like they're dead already, no thanks.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

CWSooner

  • Team Captain
  • *******
  • Posts: 6065
  • Liked:
Re: Texas and OU to where?!?!
« Reply #615 on: August 13, 2021, 09:49:21 PM »
OK, here we go.
"B.S." is not quite right, as I will try to explain.
Retreating blade stall is the limiting factor on airspeed for a helicopter.
As you noted, the blade as it retreats has less airspeed.  In fact, as soon as you start directional flight, the root of the retreating blade stops producing lift.  The compensation is that the flight controls are rigged to increase the pitch of the retreating blade as the cyclic is pushed away from neutral.  (I'll use "forward" as the example, but the same thing happens to the rotor disc if you are flying sideways or rearward.  BTW, I left out the term "feathering" in my lengthy post on this subject.  That refers to the rotor blades changing pitch.)
So, the faster you go, the further out on the retreating blade there is no lift being produced, requiring ever more pitch increase to produce the same amount of the lift that the advancing blade produces, and eventually there will not be enough and the helicopter will go out of control.  The highest airspeed that the helicopter can fly without this happening (minus a bit for a safety cushion) is Vne, Velocity Not to Exceed.
So, you know all that, more or less.
But that happens whether you have 1 blade (plus a counterweight), 2 blades (like a Huey), 3 blades (like Sikorskys of the 1950s), 4 blades (like an Apache) 5 blades (like the pre-"E" model CH-53s, or the 7 blades of a CH-53E.  The retreating side of the rotor disc is still working with high blade angles of attack to produce enough lift to balance the lift being produced by the advancing side.
What I think the advantage of having lots of blades is that they smooth out the felt impulses of each blade going from high airspeed/low AoA to low airspeed/high AOA.  I suspect also is that the blades on the CH-53 are designed to function well at high AoA.
The real fix is to have co-axial, counter-rotating rotors on the same rotor shaft.  That way you have advancing sides and retreating sides cancelling each other out.
Betarho:

I submitted both my previous essays on this subject under severe time constraints.  Here's what I left out, and I think it's the best explanation for the CH-53E's speed.  It's the most important reason that the UH-60 Black Hawk is faster than the AH-64.  The main rotor shaft is tilted forward.  That means the helicopter hangs tail low in a hover but is relatively level in forward flight.  The AH-64, by contrast, has a main rotor shaft that is perpendicular to the long axis of the fuselage.  It is level at hover, but flies nose down, creating more drag, in forward flight.  Not coincidentally, the UH-60 and the CH-53 are both Sikorsky products.  Also not coincidentally, they both have tail rotors that have their thrust vectors tilted upward so as to ameliorate the tail-down condition at a hover.
I don't know if it was the "E" model or not, but when the Marines started doing helicopter air-to-air combat training in the late 1980s (IIRC), they used the CH-53 to simulate the Soviet Mi-24 "Hind" attack helicopter as the adversary aircraft.
Play Like a Champion Today

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.