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Topic: Teams from the 1940s

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Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #70 on: March 22, 2020, 01:01:35 PM »
https://tiptop25.com/champ1947.html

Pictured above is the last of 3 touchdowns scored by Michigan fullback Jack Weisenburger in a 49-0 demolition of Southern Cal in the Rose Bowl. 9-0 Notre Dame had been ranked #1 in the "final" AP poll, which ended before the bowls, by a 107-35 margin over Michigan. But there was a great clamor for a post-bowl poll after 10-0 Michigan routed 7-2-1 Southern Cal in the Rose Bowl, and the AP actually did one this year, with Michigan topping Notre Dame in the post-bowl poll by a vote of 226 to 119 (another 12 had the 2 teams tied). However, the AP declared that the post-bowl poll didn't count as "official."

That hasn't stopped Michigan from claiming a mythical national championship (MNC) for 1947. In fact, they are actually the consensus choice for 1947
. Here is how all of the organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book see the 1947 mythical national championship (omitting math/computer ratings, which are not generally accepted as MNCs):

Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #71 on: March 22, 2020, 01:04:49 PM »
This is his fixed AP final poll, note that this could almost be a realistic final poll today.

1) Notre Dame 9-0
2) Michigan 10-0
3) Southern Methodist 9-0-2
4) Penn State 9-0-1
5) Texas 10-1
6) Alabama 8-3
7) Penn 7-0-1
8) Southern Cal 7-2-1

9) North Carolina 8-2
10) Georgia Tech 10-1
11) Army 5-2-2
12) Kansas 8-1-2
13) Mississippi 9-2
14) William & Mary 9-2
15) California 9-1
16) Oklahoma 7-2-1
17) North Carolina State 5-3-1
18) Rice 6-3-1
19) Duke 4-3-2
20) Columbia 7-2

Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #72 on: March 22, 2020, 04:40:06 PM »
This guy's site is pretty good.  Maybe Drew could link us there somehow or something.

http://www.tiptop25.com/champ1948.html

 Michigan's 1948 football team, which went 9-0 and claimed the #1 spot in the final AP poll over 9-0 Notre Dame, making up for 1947, when Michigan had also gone 9-0, but finished #2 to 9-0 Notre Dame. Michigan had capped the 1947 season with a huge 49-0 rout of Southern Cal in the Rose Bowl, and the AP conducted a post-bowl poll that went with Michigan at #1 over Notre Dame, but the AP had declared that the post-bowl poll was not "official." This season, it was Notre Dame that played a game against Southern Cal after the final AP poll. That's because the AP poll ended before their December 4th trip to Southern Cal, where Notre Dame was tripped up by a 14-14 tie to 6-3-1 USC, finishing the Irish at 9-0-1.


Because of that upset, there are no contenders to Michigan's crown this season, and they are a unanimous choice for 1948 mythical national champion (MNC) amongst organizations listed in the NCAA Records Book, even math-based ratings. That's nice for me, as Michigan is the only team I'll have to summarize in this article. This makes 2 MNCs in a row for Michigan.

Clemson went 11-0, but their schedule was weak and they performed rather poorly, so they are not a contender at all. They played one team that was ranked by the original AP poll, #20 Wake Forest, and Clemson finished ranked just #11 themselves. They did better in my fixed AP poll for 1948, finishing #8, and their Gator Bowl opponent, 8-3 Missouri, is ranked #10 in the fixed poll. Clemson won that game 24-23. But that's the only ranked opponent they played in the fixed poll, and they struggled to win 6-0 over 3-6-1 North Carolina State, 13-7 at 3-5 South Carolina, 26-19 at 5-2-2 Boston College, 21-14 over 6-4 Wake Forest (not ranked in my fixed and expanded AP poll top 25 for 1948), and 7-6 at 1-8-1 Auburn. Meanwhile, Michigan played 5 ranked teams and only one of their wins was close (touchdown or less), 13-7 at 6-2-2 Michigan State (#17) in their opener. They beat 8-2 Northwestern (#3) 28-0.

California went 10-0 in the regular season, but they lost 20-14 to 8-2 Northwestern in the Rose Bowl to blow a shot at a share of the MNC. This became a habit for Cal: they would go unbeaten during the regular season in 1949 and 1950, and then lose the Rose Bowl following each of those seasons as well. Army started this season 8-0, but they were tied by 0-8-1 Navy in their finale to finish 8-0-1, probably the biggest upset in college football history. 10-1 Oklahoma took their upset early, losing 20-17 at 7-2-1 Santa Clara in their opener. 9-1 Tulane lost 13-7 at 7-3 Georgia Tech in their 2nd game, and 8-1 Mississippi lost 20-7 at Tulane. 8-1 Cornell lost 27-6 to 8-0-1 Army at home.

Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #73 on: March 22, 2020, 04:40:28 PM »
I had no idea Michigan once was a kind of national power.

Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #74 on: March 22, 2020, 04:44:47 PM »
1) Michigan 9-0
2) Notre Dame 9-0-1
3) North Carolina 9-1-1
4) California 10-1
5) Oklahoma 10-1
6) Army 8-0-1
7) Northwestern 8-2
8) Georgia 9-2

9) Oregon 9-2
10) Southern Methodist 9-1-1
11) Clemson 11-0
12) Vanderbilt 8-2-1
13) Tulane 9-1
14) Michigan State 6-2-2
15) Mississippi 8-1
16) Minnesota 7-2
17) William & Mary 7-2-2
18) Penn State 7-1-1
19) Cornell 8-1
20) Wake Forest 6-4


I am finding that the AP poll rated some random goobers every year back in these days, and this season's goobers were 7-2-2 William & Mary (originally rated #17) and 6-4 Wake Forest (#20). William & Mary lost to Wake Forest, and should not have been rated ahead of them in the first place, but they also lost to Saint Bonaventure, so I don't know why writers were wanting to rate them at all. Wake Forest lost their bowl game, and would have fallen out of a post-bowl ranking anyway. 6-3-2 Baylor beat them in the Dixie Bowl and 5-2-2 Boston College beat them in the regular season, and Wake Forest belongs rated behind both teams. Which is to say, out of the rankings.

Drop William & Mary and Wake Forest. That moves Penn State, Cornell, and Vanderbilt up 1 spot each.


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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #75 on: March 22, 2020, 04:49:18 PM »
Huge changes were made to this AP poll. As I go back in time, I am finding the AP poll's rankings to be more and more haphazard (i.e., half-assed). Five teams dropped out of this fixed and expanded AP top 25: #13 Villanova (8-1), #16 North Carolina (7-4), #17 Tennessee (7-2-1), #18 Princeton (6-3), and #20 Missouri (7-4). Those teams took a combined 6 losses and 1 tie to unranked teams, and they defeated 1 AP-rated team. Discounting games against each other, the 10 teams that come into the fixed poll took a total of just 1 loss and 4 ties to unranked teams, and they brought home 4 wins and 2 ties against AP-rated teams.


1) Notre Dame 10-0--
2) Oklahoma 11-0--
3) Army 9-0+1
4) Rice 10-1+1
5) Michigan 6-2-1+2
6) Minnesota 7-2+2
7) Ohio State 7-1-2-1
8) California 10-1-5
9) Pacific 11-0+1
10) Santa Clara 8-2-1+5
11) Stanford 7-3-1IN
12) Southern Cal 5-3-1IN
13) UCLA 6-3IN
14) Baylor 8-2+6.5
15) Texas 6-4IN
16) Texas Christian 6-3-1IN
17) Southern Methodist 5-4-1IN
18) Kentucky 9-3-7
19) Louisiana State 8-3-10
20) Oregon State 7-3IN
21) Michigan State 6-3-2
22) Maryland 9-1-8
23) Wyoming 9-1IN
24) Tulane 7-2-1IN
25) Cornell 8-1
       Wisconsin 5-3-1
-13
IN




Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #76 on: March 22, 2020, 04:51:46 PM »
Oklahoma's history as a football power began in 1946. Prior to that, they rarely made waves nationally. They had been ranked in the 1938 and 1939 AP polls, and had there been an AP poll top 25 1901-1935, they likely would have been rated 3 more times. So in 45 seasons prior to 1946, they were top 25 just 5 times. After 1946, however, they became a top 25 fixture, and in fact they are probably the top football program 1946-present. How did they become such an overnight sensation out of nowhere? Cold, hard cash, of course.

The coach in 1946 was Hall of Famer Jim Tatum. He only stuck around that one season, but that was okay, because the school had really wanted to hire his assistant, Bud Wilkinson (at right in photo), in the first place. Also in the Hall of Fame, Wilkinson ascended to head coach and led Oklahoma to the top of the college football world. Tatum's 1946 recruiting class featured 9 players who would make All American lists during their careers. Oklahoma was a major player in the "black market" of football talent returning from the war. Recruits were matched up with "sugar daddies" who gave them money and bought them clothes. This was a system that Oklahoma continued, more or less, through the 1980s, despite the periodic affliction of NCAA penalties for cheating along the way.

Oklahoma finished 8-3 and #14 in 1946. By 1948, Wilkinson had them 10-1 and #5. This season he took them all the way to 11-0, though they finished #2 to Notre Dame in the AP poll. Wilkinson went 145-29-4 at Oklahoma 1947-1963, winning 14 conference titles. The school claims 3 MNCs for his time (this season is not one of them).
 Bud Wilkinson had played for Minnesota 1934-1936, when they won 3 straight MNCs, so he was used to it. His 47 straight wins at Oklahoma 1953-1957 are a seemingly unbreakable FBS record, and he ranks highly on the list for all-time major/FBS coaching win percentage.


This Oklahoma team was dominated by the 1946 recruiting class, now seniors. The one Hall of Fame player was end Jim Owens, a nonconsensus All American who is now best known as head coach of Washington 1957-1974. He went 99-82-6 there and won 3 conference titles, taking the Huskies to the Rose Bowl following the 1959, 1960, and 1963 seasons. Washington claims an MNC for 1960.

CWSooner

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #77 on: March 22, 2020, 08:38:08 PM »
https://tiptop25.com/champ1946.html

[img width=500 height=303.991]https://i.imgur.com/mvorQqb.png[/img]

Pictured above is the defining play of 1946's "Game of the Century": Notre Dame's Bill Gompers turning the corner on 4th down and heading for Army's goal line. But alas, he didn't make it. He didn't even reach the 2 yard line for a first down, and this game saw no other serious scoring threats, ending in a 0-0 stalemate.

Never before
had a game been hyped as much as this meeting of #1 Army and #2 Notre Dame. Other games had been called "Game of the Century" in the past, but this was the first to be widely described as such by the press nationwide before the game. Army was the 2-time defending national champion, coming in on a 25 game winning streak. They had beaten Notre Dame 59-0 and 48-0 the previous 2 years, but Notre Dame's coach and players were back from the war, and when last they were on campus, Notre Dame had won the 1943 mythical national championship (MNC).

This game featured 3 Heisman Trophy winners, 3 Outland Trophy winners, and 10 Hall of Famers, not counting the Hall of Fame coaches on each side. Notre Dame claims MNCs for 1943, 1946, 1947, and 1949, and Army claims MNCs for 1944, 1945, and 1946. This was a true clash of the titans, an intersection of 2 of the greatest runs in college football history: Army going 27-0-1 1944-1946 and Notre Dame going 36-0-2 1946-1949.
I've always thought it was B.S. that the service academies were playing football during World War II.  A lot of military brainpower and leadership ability not contributing one damn thing to the war effort.
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CWSooner

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #78 on: March 22, 2020, 08:44:16 PM »


I was thinking if that was a house, it would be pretty large.
There's the glimmering of a nickname there. . . .
Somehow, I've never seen (or maybe paid attention to) that view of Michigan Stadium.  I didn't realize how low the structure is and how far the field is below ground level.  Reminds me of the Yale Bowl, which I've only seen at night while driving past it.
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CWSooner

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #79 on: March 22, 2020, 09:13:56 PM »
Oklahoma's history as a football power began in 1946. Prior to that, they rarely made waves nationally. They had been ranked in the 1938 and 1939 AP polls, and had there been an AP poll top 25 1901-1935, they likely would have been rated 3 more times. So in 45 seasons prior to 1946, they were top 25 just 5 times. After 1946, however, they became a top 25 fixture, and in fact they are probably the top football program 1946-present. How did they become such an overnight sensation out of nowhere? Cold, hard cash, of course.

The coach in 1946 was Hall of Famer Jim Tatum. He only stuck around that one season, but that was okay, because the school had really wanted to hire his assistant, Bud Wilkinson (at right in photo), in the first place. Also in the Hall of Fame, Wilkinson ascended to head coach and led Oklahoma to the top of the college football world. Tatum's 1946 recruiting class featured 9 players who would make All American lists during their careers. Oklahoma was a major player in the "black market" of football talent returning from the war. Recruits were matched up with "sugar daddies" who gave them money and bought them clothes. This was a system that Oklahoma continued, more or less, through the 1980s, despite the periodic affliction of NCAA penalties for cheating along the way.
Aww, shucks!  It was nuthin'!

Seriously, I think that the big players were already finding creative ways to pay players, and had been doing so for a long time.  The practice was pretty widespread.  Wilkinson's coaching buddies like Bear and Duffy surely were doing much the same thing.

But this gets to why I don't want to see OU join the SEC.  With a program that I think is relatively clean by the standards of top-25 programs, we're doing just fine in the Big 12.  But in the shark tank that is the SEC, OU would have to find ways to compete with the bigger, better sharks, and that would involve cheating and that would end up with us getting caught and being put on probation.

We aren't among the best at cheating without getting caught.  We are somewhat better than SMU was in the years leading up to its "death penalty," however.  I think.


Quote
Oklahoma finished 8-3 and #14 in 1946. By 1948, Wilkinson had them 10-1 and #5. This season he took them all the way to 11-0, though they finished #2 to Notre Dame in the AP poll. Wilkinson went 145-29-4 at Oklahoma 1947-1963, winning 14 conference titles. The school claims 3 MNCs for his time (this season is not one of them). Bud Wilkinson had played for Minnesota 1934-1936, when they won 3 straight MNCs, so he was used to it. His 47 straight wins at Oklahoma 1953-1957 are a seemingly unbreakable FBS record, and he ranks highly on the list for all-time major/FBS coaching win percentage.

This Oklahoma team was dominated by the 1946 recruiting class, now seniors. The one Hall of Fame player was end Jim Owens, a nonconsensus All American who is now best known as head coach of Washington 1957-1974. He went 99-82-6 there and won 3 conference titles, taking the Huskies to the Rose Bowl following the 1959, 1960, and 1963 seasons. Washington claims an MNC for 1960.


OU might have won a post-bowl poll had there been one in 1949.  Notre Dame didn't play in a bowl game, while OU beat LSU 35-0 in the Sugar Bowl.  As it was, the final (pre-bowl) AP results for the unbeaten teams were:
1. Notre Dame, 9-0, 2402 points
2. Oklahoma, 10-0, 2018 points
3. California, 10-0, 1900 points
4. Army, 9-0, 1838 points
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ALA2262

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #80 on: March 22, 2020, 10:18:45 PM »
1) Michigan 9-0
2) Notre Dame 9-0-1
3) North Carolina 9-1-1
4) California 10-1
5) Oklahoma 10-1
6) Army 8-0-1
7) Northwestern 8-2
8) Georgia 9-2

9) Oregon 9-2
10) Southern Methodist 9-1-1
11) Clemson 11-0
12) Vanderbilt 8-2-1
13) Tulane 9-1
14) Michigan State 6-2-2
15) Mississippi 8-1
16) Minnesota 7-2
17) William & Mary 7-2-2
18) Penn State 7-1-1
19) Cornell 8-1
20) Wake Forest 6-4


I am finding that the AP poll rated some random goobers every year back in these days, and this season's goobers were 7-2-2 William & Mary (originally rated #17) and 6-4 Wake Forest (#20). William & Mary lost to Wake Forest, and should not have been rated ahead of them in the first place, but they also lost to Saint Bonaventure, so I don't know why writers were wanting to rate them at all. Wake Forest lost their bowl game, and would have fallen out of a post-bowl ranking anyway. 6-3-2 Baylor beat them in the Dixie Bowl and 5-2-2 Boston College beat them in the regular season, and Wake Forest belongs rated behind both teams. Which is to say, out of the rankings.

Drop William & Mary and Wake Forest. That moves Penn State, Cornell, and Vanderbilt up 1 spot each.


1960 was the first year in which sports writers were the only voters in the AP Poll. Prior to that the requirement was being a member of the AP. Which meant just about anyone. I remember my uncle, who was a small business owner, being a member and voting. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Teams from the 1940s
« Reply #81 on: March 23, 2020, 06:26:25 AM »
I have learned a few things about the Old Days here, more than a few.  I hit 1949 obviously and still no face masks, even a single bar.  The ranked teams are starting to include only 3-4-5 programs that today are irrelevant.  Most of P5s now.  There is a good bit of passing by some teams but scores remain low in competitive games  (blowouts are still there).  The PAT has become more of a sure thing.  No 2 point conversion yet of course.

Some of the venues are already pretty large based on announced attendance.

 

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