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Topic: Sporty Cars

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Cincydawg

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #504 on: June 01, 2020, 11:54:41 AM »
Yeah, the Honda S2000 was sporty and had no low end torque to speak of.

I like low end torque, it makes normal driving more fun, and doesn't hurt spirited driving.

Torque >>> horsepower in most senses.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #505 on: June 01, 2020, 12:18:37 PM »
low end torque is great for many things, but rarely considered sporty or fun

does save on the transmission
To some extent I disagree... Low end torque means you have available power anywhere in the rev range, and that IS beneficial.

Example 1:

I used to ride a Suzuki SV650S. It was a V-twin 650cc sportbike. It put out about 65 hp peak. My buddy had a Honda CBR600RR. That bike put out over 100 hp. They both peaked at about 45 Nm of torque. The difference? The Suzuki put out its peak hp at 9K RPM and torque at 7.5K RPM, and had a flatter torque profile in general. The Honda put out its peak HP at 13.5K RPM and peak torque at 11K RPM, with little torque at low RPM but obviously tried to rip your arms out of their sockets at high RPM.

I rode both bikes. The Suzuki if you were cruising at 4K RPM, and you hit the throttle, responded immediately. The Honda at 4K RPM? Twist the throttle and wait, and wait, and wait. The CBR600RR would be a much more "sporty" or "fun" bike on a racetrack or during spirited riding in the twisties. The Suzuki, despite much lower HP, was a lot more sporty around town, and was certainly fun enough on a racetrack or in the twisties.

Example 2:

The Honda S2000 was pretty fun and sporty. Putting out 240 hp in a pretty small 4-cyl engine [for the time] was pretty solid performance. But the knock on the car, by most people who ever drove it, was that you had to be into the peak throttle and peak rev ranges for it to be sporty and fun. At reasonable RPM, around town, the engine is weak. It doesn't come alive until you get into it. As an owner said:

Quote
Second, an S2000 is all about that engine. Back to the previous owner’s comment. A first generation S2000 below 6200 rpm, the approximate point of VTEC engagement, is a dullard. It has no discernible torque. It feels like a Civic… not an SI, mind you, but a base Civic. And that may be too generous. But get it up on-cam and everything changes. It screams to life. It sounds dramatic, especially with the air-box cover removed (yes, purists, I know that hurts my intake air temperatures, but it sounds much better and that’s what I care about!) An S2000 without this engine would still be significantly different than a Miata for the reasons mentioned above. But add that engine and the difference grows exponentially. There are just so few cars that let you rev freely to 9000 rpm. That’s one reason I’d take a first generation S2000 over a second. I’ll trade mid-range torque any day of the week for that stratospheric redline. Other cars that can do this – an LFA, a GT3, a 458 – cost orders of magnitude more. So, for us mere mortals, an S2000 is the only realistic way to experience the thrill of an engine that JUST. KEEPS. REVVING. Now that does take a conscious adjustment in driving style. Every time I get in this car, I have to remind myself to hold a gear longer than I imagine possible (once the engine’s warmed to operating temperature, of course!). It’s just so ingrained to shift by 6000. But stay with it and the engine rewards you with power and a scream unlike any other. The engine makes the car in an S2000.
Obviously this owner is a fan. But even he admits that if you're not winding the hell out of that engine, it's a "dullard".

Problem is that you can't and don't drive like that every day. Sure, maybe it's fun when you're really ripping it around on a track (this poster clearly has track experience), but how often are you going to be driving it on the street in a manner that doesn't attract the unwanted attention of the authorities?

Example 3:

I've never driven a Tesla. Personally I don't really consider them "sporty", but I know that nearly everybody who owns a Model 3 just gushes about the acceleration. Anyone that tries to criticize a Tesla gets the "yeah bro but have you ever driven one?" response from the fanboy owners.

What does Tesla (and most other EVs) have? Instant torque, available all across the rev range. Put your foot in it and it goes.

Cincydawg

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #506 on: June 01, 2020, 12:47:31 PM »
It is a property of an electric motor to have instant torque and that makes them useful in sporty cars at least as an adjunct to the IC engine.

You locate the battery so as to create an ultra low CG and that makes the car feel like it handles well especially if the polar moment of inertia is small.  

Do you know why you don't see 'Ring times for a Tesla?  

The Ring is somewhat considered now the ultimate test of a car.  Car makers vie to post low Ring times in SM.

And as noted, a car with a low Ring time might not be that much fun as a daily driver.

I can't drive a new Corvette anywhere nears its capability without making arrangements, so why have the capability?

FearlessF

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #507 on: June 01, 2020, 01:02:46 PM »
To some extent I disagree... Low end torque means you have available power anywhere in the rev range, and that IS beneficial.


I feel we mostly agree

part of the "sporty" or "fun" is winding things up and going up and down thru the gears
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CWSooner

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #508 on: June 01, 2020, 06:55:08 PM »
But 0-60 times are more about torque than peak hp.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #509 on: June 02, 2020, 12:57:45 PM »
The main aspects for 0-60 times are:

Torque (curve)
Gearing (and transmission type, TC> torque converter > manual)
Tires (traction)
Drive type (FWD<RWD<AWD)
Ancillary (surface type, temperature, launch control, etc.)

The fastest cars are AWD with some RWD midengine cars getting into the fray under 3.0 seconds.

Those 60's muscle cars in general had poor tires (by modern standards), no launch control, no twin clutch transmissions, but a lot of torque, getting a good launch was not an easy thing to do).  They also were heavy in the front end.




FearlessF

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #510 on: June 02, 2020, 03:26:11 PM »
Ferrari 812 Superfast Review: One of the Best Engines of All Time

The result—an aero-focused, heavy-for-Ferrari GT supercar with rear-axle steering and hyperintelligent traction control—is far more than the sum of its parts, a completely enchanting ride with more than enough theatrics to justify the $358,000 ticket price. Still, when an engine is as good as this one, it breaks the curve for the rest of the car. Every other part of the experience has to rise to the moment as well.

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/33779/ferrari-812-superfast-review-one-of-the-best-engines-of-all-time
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CWSooner

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #511 on: June 02, 2020, 03:38:54 PM »
There was a great article in Road & Track almost five years ago now: "The Unlikely Story of the Ferrari-Beating Shelby Daytona Coupe."

A few passages:


Quote
SUMMIT POINT, 2015: The engine starts, this barking burble. RapapapaWHAPPATACRACKATA. Sitting in the seat when it lights for the first time is like firecrackers in an airplane bathroom—you jump a little, but there's nowhere to go.

I shuffle the car around for photography, in street clothes. The aluminum floor, inches from a header, leaves a shiny burn on my ankle the first time I accidentally relax my leg. And the second, and the third.
I brought a Nomex race suit. As I head off to put it on, Pete makes fun of me. Tells me to be a man, tape up my ankle. That Miles tested the thing in T-shirts.
So I grumble a little and think, Miles, you pansy. You only live once. And I click the car's little four-point harness shut and pull onto the track, and attempt to drive a given quantity of whee out of it. In a Le Mans car, surrounded by fuel and explosions and aluminum too hot to touch, in a tiny leather bucket, bare-ankled, in a T-shirt and khakis. The car comes on cam and explodes onto the front straight.
God help me, I love it. —SS
And


Quote
SUMMIT POINT, 2015: You can chuck it. You can wrestle it, and if you're feeling saucy, you can tackle the car down to the corner, sloppy and free, without losing much speed. You can also drive it like the classicists, slow hands on that thin wooden wheel, and it works. Balletic. But Jesus, it's less fun.

Above all, it's honest. There's so much grip, you need the revs way up if you want to steer it with your right foot. A gentle wiggle from the back end under hard braking. If it under-steers in slow corners, it's because you did something wrong—the front suspension is basically just a leaf spring and kingpins, but it works amazingly well. The wheel gets heavy when the nose is sliding, always talking. And if the rear is going to move, the wheel gets light, and you correct, and it comes back.
The sensations are gobsmacking. The long, graceful hood, always leading the way. The setting sun gets in my eyes in a slow corner, the middle of a second-gear slide, and I instinctively pull a hand off the wheel to block it. A swirl of cockpit dust lights up in the glare. The car leaps over the hump on Shenandoah's back straight and lands a little crooked, but friendly. The engine is just torquey, hammering, long-legged Detroit.
Of course it won everything—it's a Cobra with the Cobra's main problem obliterated. After five minutes, I have zero doubt that one would carry me through a brawl at Le Mans or anywhere else.
Grabbing fourth on the front straight, I am suddenly struck by an inexplicable need to know what this car feels like at 180 mph. —SS
And


Quote
SUMMIT POINT, 2015: We can be brilliant, the human race. But also very stupid. I wouldn't trade the safety advancements of a modern competition car for all the Nomex in Europe, but there is something here that we've lost. Undeniably walked away from. Something sublime and raw that we're never getting back.

And I'd be lying if I didn't say that there is a tiny, embarrassingly Luddite part of me that wishes everything since had never happened. That this had been the final stroke of an art form, race cars never evolving further. And that they still ran Le Mans and old Spa and old Reims with loud things that were graceful and brutal and risky and thin. That it was possible for a handful of clever guys in a garage in Southern California to throw caution aside, take on that world, and win.
We got a moment, though. An instant of that light, from a bunch of hometown upstarts. Ours.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #512 on: June 02, 2020, 03:42:30 PM »
Ferrari 812 Superfast Review: One of the Best Engines of All Time

The result—an aero-focused, heavy-for-Ferrari GT supercar with rear-axle steering and hyperintelligent traction control—is far more than the sum of its parts, a completely enchanting ride with more than enough theatrics to justify the $358,000 ticket price. Still, when an engine is as good as this one, it breaks the curve for the rest of the car. Every other part of the experience has to rise to the moment as well.

https://www.thedrive.com/new-cars/33779/ferrari-812-superfast-review-one-of-the-best-engines-of-all-time
I literally just watched a video on this car last night.  
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FearlessF

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #513 on: June 02, 2020, 03:45:00 PM »
impressive - I'd never spend that kinda money even if I hit a powerball ticket for 150 million, but wow
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CWSooner

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #514 on: June 02, 2020, 05:47:22 PM »
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FearlessF

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #515 on: June 02, 2020, 08:34:52 PM »
sporty pic
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CWSooner

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #516 on: June 02, 2020, 09:38:52 PM »
sporty pic
There were six original Shelby Daytona Coupes made.  They won the World Championship of Makes in the GT class in 1965, racing on a shoestring budget, as both Shelby and Ford had moved on to the GT40.  I think that that was the first time an American manufacturer (Shelby) had ever won it.
After that year, they were done.  Carroll Shelby and Ford Racing had totally lost interest.
So those six cars sat in a garage in England for several months.  Finally, the Englishman who ran Ford Racing in Europe told Shelby that if nobody came and got them, he was going to dump them in the ocean.
Shelby sold them at a "garage sale" for $24,000 total, for all six.
Today, each of them is worth "double-digit millions."
I don't know if that's one of the original six, but I think it is.  The driving commentary I posted upthread was in reference to an original, and this was the only car shown in the story except for testing and racing photos from 1964-65.
The engines were 289s with Weber carbs.
The designer was Pete Brock, who by ca. 1970 had left Shelby and was running Datsuns (Nissans) in Sports Car Club of America races under his own team, Brock Racing Enterprises (BRE).
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CWSooner

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Re: Sporty Cars
« Reply #517 on: June 02, 2020, 10:10:24 PM »
Oops!  It's a replica. A "hyperaccurate, aluminum-bodied replica built by Daytona restoration guru Mike McCluskey."
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