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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18690 on: March 10, 2023, 02:51:14 PM »
my question is..... if they lied about election theories, why would you believe their admission that they lied?

One could evaluate such questions by looking at motivation.  Fox News was being flanked on the right by OAN and NM and made a decision, apparently, based on ratings needs ($$$) to go with the massive election fraud charge they admitted privately that they knew was false.  These admissions were not in public until recently with disclosure because of the Dominion law suit.  So, ostensibly they said knew the election fraud theory was wrong in camera where they had no motivation to lie.

All this was mostly pushed by their "opinion" folks like Hannity et al.  What they said in private at the time was very differently from what they were pushing on their opinion shows.  Ratings ...

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18691 on: March 10, 2023, 02:58:22 PM »
hah, the Fox news thing going on a week ago or currently.....

supposedly, big shots at Fox news admitted to lying about election stuff or something

my question is..... if they lied about election theories, why would you believe their admission that they lied?

Because the fact that they were caught "lying" was that they proven to be admitting privately behind the scenes that it was BS. 

When someone's public statements don't match their private statements, the most logical thing to assume is that the public statement is a lie. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18692 on: March 10, 2023, 03:52:07 PM »
Because the fact that they were caught "lying" was that they proven to be admitting privately behind the scenes that it was BS.

When someone's public statements don't match their private statements, the most logical thing to assume is that the public statement is a lie.

Thank you.
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18693 on: March 11, 2023, 11:55:30 AM »
Can anyone cite verbatim a lie Fauci told where he knew the truth and said otherwise?

Off the top of my head, there was one of his stints where masks were good (he went back and forth on that a few times) but private emails to friends later obtained from that same time showed him telling them there was no need for masks.  This doesn't prove "lying" of course, but the alternative is incompetence and either way, it doesn't engender trust.

But this whole thread started with your response to my class where you talked about origins of the virus.  FYI, I was not talking about that at all.  I don't claim to know anything special there.  I get mini, dumbed-down briefs about treatments, risks associated with the virus, vaccine stuff....only stuff relevant to patients calling their doctor with health questions.  I have never claimed to know anything about the origin of the virus.  What I can tell you is that the CDC and every other entity has (predictably) changed their tune on a number of things, a number of times.  That's what I meant.  

FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18694 on: March 11, 2023, 11:59:12 AM »
one of my friends got the COVID 7 weeks ago

still not back to normal
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18695 on: March 11, 2023, 12:50:36 PM »
The whole "election fraud" conversation makes me sad.  The more people tell me it's proven to not be true, the more I shake my head.  How can something that's never been investigated on multiple fronts be shown true or false?

You could define "election tampering" broadly in three ways:
1)  propaganda--news outlets report falsehoods, fail to report truths, and tilt hard toward one candidate with demonstrable impact.  The latter part was investigated for the 2016 election cycle and most analysts concluded Google alone was responsible for about a 500,000 vote shift, leading some to speculate Trump may have won the 2016 popular vote if the media had treated both candidates equally. 
2)  circumvented laws--a state's election laws are violated or circumvented in some way in the process of an election
3)  outright fraud--ballot stuffing, ballot stealing, machine/software tampering, etc. 

1 and 2 aren't even in question.  The 2016 election cycle media treated Trump like Mother Teresa compared to the 2020 election cycle media.  That I know of, no one has tried to quantify how much that impacted votes, but if 2016 was found to be impactful, 2020 was multiply so.  The part about laws, again, nobody has ever focused on it or tried to explain or defend instances in question.  The Wisconsin Supreme Court's (I believe it was Wisconsin) opinion on the case that was brought was eye-opening.  It was a 4-3 decision, with the majority opinion basically saying "Eh, okay, yeah, looks like some BS went on here, but really, do we want to open that can of worms?" while the dissenting opinion was a scathing rebuke of turning a blind eye to the evidence presented.  It's been a couple years, and obviously I'm beyond paraphrasing, but the point is this is but one example of credible skepticism.  Not proof of election tampering, mind you....founded skepticism.  There were other state legislatures presented with evidence, none of whom refused to ratify the electoral votes, but also nowhere in those hearings did anyone come forward with anything along the lines of "We can explain that.  Here's where the people who think we violated state laws are wrong."  Just silence, and the media didn't cover any of it.  Some of the states went on to pass measures to tighten the electoral process.  That's their prerogative, but why do that if they didn't see something that caught their attention?  

#3 is where all the attention lies.  I have never had an opinion on the Dominion thing.  I simply don't know anything about it.  I know Sydney Powell never produced any evidence of her claims, while some independent audits claimed they did.  But I wasn't privy to their process and I wouldn't have understood it anyway.  It doesn't help when parties wanted to audit Dominion machines and the courts repeatedly blocked access.  The only two machines I know of that were gotten a hold of, eventually, turned up some pretty bad results.  Again, the media is silent on this, and a natural skeptic like me has nowhere to turn--I don't trust that judges blocked access to the machines (why?) or the media when they ignore something, and I don't trust smaller, independent sources who relay the above information (I don't know you....why should I believe you and that you're not just trying to get my conservative hackles up?).  Some data scientists began doing things like applying Benford's curve to election results and claiming things were off, which is not proof of fraud as far as I know, it just means deeper investigation is warranted.  But that didn't happen.  YouTube and Facebook just told everybody to shut the hell up or we'll boot you, which....look, anytime dissenting opinions, questioning, and free speech start getting squashed, I start getting really suspicious.  D'Souza's Mules film was interesting, but unlike many conservatives' claims, it proved nothing.  It did, however, point yet again to a reasonable warrant for more investigation.  But that didn't happen either. 

All that to say, people who claim there was outright fraud, imo, have a ways to go to back up those claims.  But there is warranted skepticism that was never addressed, and as such, other people who sneer at the first group and call them conspiracy theorists and other pejoratives can STFU.  Things that didn't make sense were never offered to be explained or investigated.  "Just shut up and look the other way" is admittedly suspicious as hell.  Some have told me it's because "they" don't need to waste time and money on ridiculous conspiracy theories.  1) that's begging the question--assuming the conclusion in consideration, and 2) "they" spent 3 years and hundreds of millions of taxpayer dollars in Trump's presidency trying to pin Russian collusion on his administration in the 2016 election, and turned up jack squat.  Well, no, actually the FBI did ultimately trace it back to Hillary Clinton's emails, suggesting that as a viable propaganda strategy.  Don't tell me you can't investigate some genuinely eyebrow-raising stuff and put my mind at ease.  When half the country thinks there was fraud, it's not a waste of time to reassure them they're wrong, imo. 

So yeah, I don't know that fraud happened.  I don't know that it didn't either.  And I'm skeptical.  

FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18696 on: March 11, 2023, 01:15:47 PM »
I know fraud happened.  There's just no way that an election that large happened w/o any funny stuff going on.

The question is..... was there enough to affect the outcome

and yes, there are enough folks concerned about the possibility of fraud that steps should be taken to ensure people feel good about the process
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longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18697 on: March 11, 2023, 01:40:46 PM »
first time in 180 years that an incumbent got more votes then the first election and still lost

does that mean fraud? Nope but it does make one wonder
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FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18698 on: March 11, 2023, 01:57:53 PM »
electoral votes are different
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18699 on: March 11, 2023, 02:02:19 PM »
There is fraud in every election, and always has been.  Was it greater in the past one than usual?  I have not seen very compelling evidence it was.

Joe B. got a ton of votes in California, over 3 million more than Obama got.  Now, maybe someone had a finger on the scales in CA, but considering that state was safe as safe can be for the presidential vote, I can't imagine anyone would have bothered statewide.

Ballot harvesting happens a lot because it can impact local outcomes, mayoral races etc.

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18700 on: March 11, 2023, 02:07:50 PM »
Maybe a discussion for "other news" thread fellas.
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FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18701 on: March 11, 2023, 02:29:12 PM »
maybe but, something has to keep this thread going

1336 pages down the drain
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FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18702 on: March 11, 2023, 02:30:52 PM »
There is fraud in every election, and always has been.  Was it greater in the past one than usual?  I have not seen very compelling evidence it was.

Joe B. got a ton of votes in California, over 3 million more than Obama got.  Now, maybe someone had a finger on the scales in CA, but considering that state was safe as safe can be for the presidential vote, I can't imagine anyone would have bothered statewide.

Ballot harvesting happens a lot because it can impact local outcomes, mayoral races etc.
and steps should be taken to elliminate this as much as possible 
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #18703 on: March 11, 2023, 02:44:32 PM »
There is fraud in every election, and always has been.  Was it greater in the past one than usual?  I have not seen very compelling evidence it was.

My point was even if there is compelling evidence, you still wouldn't have seen it because it's never been investigated.  And it makes me shake my head when people say "I haven't seen any evidence."  Of course you haven't.  The point is nobody has looked for it.  

It will also vary person to person what "evidence" is.  There are conservative pundits who look at things through a strict legal lens and say since they haven't seen anything that would hold up in court, they're not going to talk about it.  Then there are people like me who believe in things like statistical theory, especially targeted statistical analysis.  I agree it's not "proof" and as far as I know, wouldn't hold up in court, but 1) I believe it to be warrant for further investigation, 2) I believe what numbers say, if they're accurately generated.  If we can say that Hypothesis A is true with 95% confidence, or more saliently, that Benford's Law has been violated conveniently in the areas in question, and not in other counties, I'm going to suspect something strongly and not feel bad about it.  Particularly when nobody cares to produce evidence to the contrary.  You say you haven't seen evidence.  I can just as easily say I haven't seen evidence the election was fair.  That's the exact point...there's never been this much dissent and it would benefit us all for a number of things to be sufficiently investigated.  

With that, I'll take the Badger's advice and take it elsewhere.  I got an AI ethics project to get moving on anyway.  If I sit around here talking to youse guys I'll never graduate.  

 

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