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bwar:

Mandates are one thing. My position on anything is that I'm not going to disobey a mandate wanting me to do something smart JUST BECAUSE it's a mandate. It takes a certain level of stubbornness to defy a mandate at cost to oneself. (Note: I'm not saying that people who don't want the vaccine aren't smart--I disagree with them but it's their own decision to make for themselves.)

I chose to get the vax because I believe it was the right decision for me. I would have done that without a mandate, and I wouldn't refuse to do it just because there's a mandate. 

My daughter (age 9) got her first jab last Saturday, so a few more weeks and my entire family will be vaxxed. 

Agreed.


Trying to pull the discussion over here.  I'd move the last couple of posts if I knew how, but that would require reading instructions and whatnot...

I am not anti-vaccines. I am anti-mandates. I do not believe the government should be able to force people to do anything with their own bodies. I think most drugs should be legal, the war on drugs are stupid. If heroin was legal- I wouldn’t run to the store and do it tomorrow. I don’t think most people would. And believe it or not I also think woman should have the right to choose when it comes to abortion. Government does not belong in peoples personal/private lives, period. As far as I’m concerned. I was for gay marriage as well- way before it was passed into law. If two consenting adults want to get married- why does it matter what sex they are and why is the government involved at all?

IF they were able to prove these vaccines were effective at stopping the spread dead in it’s tracks and eradicating the disease- then I might be on board for vaccine mandates. But if that had been the case- I believe you’d have seen people line up to get it- there wouldn’t be need for mandates. Study after study in highly vaccinated countries are showing the vaccines do not prevent infection or stop the spread effectively. At best they can slow it down a bit and help prevent severe symptoms. But there are therapeutics out now and more coming to market that can basically defeat the virus if you take at first sign of symptom- so again- is there a need for a vaccine that doesn’t stop transmission but can help limit severe symptoms when you have therapeutics now that can basically kick the viruses ass in 2-3 days if taken at first sign of symptoms? Not really sure.

I got the vax, having said that I do not have children, and if I had children I do not think I would give them it. I don’t see the benefits for them- as the risks for children being seriously ill or dying from COVID is virtually non-existent- and I see more potential risks giving them an experimental vaccine that was rushed to market- and to be frank we really don’t know the long term side effects it can cause in children and the FDA has admitted as such. And there has been high cases of myocarditis caused by the moderna vaccine in young boys. So much so that many countries have been banning the moderna vax for young boys.

I honestly believe that it aught to be up to the people and the parents of children to decide what they do or don’t put in their bodies and their children bodies.

Quoted from the other thread here to move things over.


I'm with you that I think the vaccine mandates aren't warranted here. I do think that there's a case to be made that government vaccine mandates can be justified, and SCOTUS jurisprudence supports this. However, I don't necessarily think that a mandate is justified for the COVID vaccine. 

I do believe that the evidence is that the vax slows the spread; it does not stop it. So I wouldn't exactly call it "worthless" when it comes to slowing the spread. 

That said, I believe that the effect on kids of Delta were more significant than the previous strains, and coupled with the added transmissibility changed the game somewhat. The risks of the vaccine on kids are very low; I wouldn't say there have been "high" cases in the percentage sense of myocarditis and moderna, but the approved vaccine in the US for minors is pfizer anyway and has not had that reported. 

So I made the choice that I'd rather have my own kids vaccinated than not. That said, the extremely low incidence of serious effects on minors from COVID makes it again much more of a "parents choice" issue for me than a requirement. 

New COVID cases in California are now roughly 4x that of in Florida.

Mdot, this is a case of quoting a true fact without ANY semblance of context or scale, and IMHO it is deceptive. Because the implication is that Florida is somehow doing well or that California is doing poorly when it comes to handling COVID. 

First and foremost, California has almost double the population of Florida. So new cases are twice as high per capita than new cases in Florida. But that's the more minor of my complaints with your statement.

The more important thing, though, is context. California and Florida both had Delta spikes at the same time. California peaked at about 13K new cases (7-day MA) per day. Florida peaked over 20K. Again, with the difference in population, that means that the rates per capita in Florida were triple those of California during the peak. Florida's decline from that peak has been steeper than California's which is why California's case numbers now are higher.

But quoting current new case rates without acknowledging the peak that preceded current rates is just being intentionally specious. At best you could make an argument like Cincy that "area under the curve" is going to be the same regardless, and I'm not sure that will stand up under close scrutiny, but you didn't do that. 

New COVID cases in California are now roughly 4x that of in Florida.

Newsome has been nowhere to be found after his very public booster stunt, he’s skipped Cop26 and hadn’t been seen in public for nearly 2 weeks until he reappeared yesterday to announce extension of COVID state of emergency in California.

might as well jump in with a post dripping with political connotations 

Hey GR, is it getting cold enough up there to push folks indoors?  If so, that would be consistent with trends we've seen elsewhere...

might as well jump in with a post dripping with political connotations

not really calling into question either party. Just Newsome. He's a little weasel who preaches one thing- does another. Telling people to wear masks and not gather- while he's going maskless indoors to $500 a plate dinner parties with dozen plus people who work for health care lobby at the most prestigious restaurant in the entire United States. Guy also vetoes a bill that would've blocked nursing home patients from being evicted during pandemic. I just don't like the guy. And it has nothing to do with what party he is affiliated with. 

Mdot, this is a case of quoting a true fact without ANY semblance of context or scale, and IMHO it is deceptive. Because the implication is that Florida is somehow doing well or that California is doing poorly when it comes to handling COVID.

First and foremost, California has almost double the population of Florida. So new cases are twice as high per capita than new cases in Florida. But that's the more minor of my complaints with your statement.

The more important thing, though, is context. California and Florida both had Delta spikes at the same time. California peaked at about 13K new cases (7-day MA) per day. Florida peaked over 20K. Again, with the difference in population, that means that the rates per capita in Florida were triple those of California during the peak. Florida's decline from that peak has been steeper than California's which is why California's case numbers now are higher.

But quoting current new case rates without acknowledging the peak that preceded current rates is just being intentionally specious. At best you could make an argument like Cincy that "area under the curve" is going to be the same regardless, and I'm not sure that will stand up under close scrutiny, but you didn't do that.

Didn't realize this. Thanks for setting me straight on it.