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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15218 on: August 25, 2021, 09:36:47 AM »
And those who got COVID with the initial virus, and got vaccinated anyway (i.e. my in-laws) will be in really good shape going forward.


Do we know this for sure? That's the boat I'm in, but I was thinking it would better to be reversed.
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utee94

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15219 on: August 25, 2021, 09:39:59 AM »
I haven't seen anything definitive about natural immunity being better than vaccinated immunity.  Certainly nothing peer-reviewed.  That would be a hard study to implement, since there are so many confounding variables in your control group.

847badgerfan

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U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15221 on: August 25, 2021, 11:55:34 AM »
This is an interesting (long) read.

Immunity to SARS‐CoV‐2 induced by infection or vaccination - Castro Dopico - - Journal of Internal Medicine - Wiley Online Library

Good stuff, Badge. Thanks for sharing.

Per 94's point, I think the paper underscores that there is a lot we don't know about durability of immunity as of yet, and we know less about durability of vaccine-induced immunity than naturally-acquired immunity, because the vaccines are much newer. 

It certainly does suggest that vaccination after natural infection generates significant immune response, more than the vaccine itself.

However it doesn't say anything about breakthrough infection or exposure to the virus after vaccination. I personally wonder if encountering the virus now, after having been vaccinated, would improve immunity or durability of immunity in any way due to the natural exposure on top of vaccine-induced immune response... 

If you find anything else, please share. 

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15222 on: August 25, 2021, 11:58:09 AM »
I've got more, but I need to read prior to posting. That takes a lot of time.

The bottom line here is that we are flying a plane and building the plane at the same time.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15223 on: August 25, 2021, 12:15:58 PM »
I've got more, but I need to read prior to posting. That takes a lot of time.

The bottom line here is that we are flying a plane and building the plane at the same time.
Agreed. I've heard a lot of people, though, state somewhat definitively that naturally-acquired immunity is better than vaccine-induced immunity. I'm wondering, much like 94, if there's any actual scientific evidence for that assertion. 

Those people tend as far as I've seen to also be heavily congruous with the group who choose not to get the vaccine. Such that I suspect many are using it as justification for not getting the vaccine. 

Hence actually getting to the bottom of it from a scientific perspective is important...

As is whether there is a benefit to exposure to COVID post-vaccination that confers the same benefits of natural immunity, if naturally-acquired immunity is superior.

MrNubbz

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15224 on: August 25, 2021, 12:33:58 PM »
Starting off strong! First five words convey that you have already dismissed any evidence because it comes from the CDC. Pretty much shuts down debate right there... "I'm not going to accept any evidence you bring, because I'm going to outright say that whatever source it came from is suspect.That response was to another poster basically stating the unaxed were selfish killers.(sarcasm)I thought that was obvious . After the vacillating(that's being generous) told last year by the CDC/media anyone should give them a chance?Remember what NEO Buckeye stated last April 2020 I believe that his RN daughter said they were tagging deaths as almost all covid(later officials admitting it).And I stated months later the same conclusions not just from a family friend who is in fact an RN at the Cleveland Clinic.The reasoning was to make up for funding lost from non life threatening surgeries.Well just come out and say that why tag everything in the middle of an epidemic - that defied not only logic but sullied trust

I dare say that you're a unicorn, MrN. Most unvaxxed never started wearing masks or social distancing. Speaking from personal experience--people in my own life. They bristled at the idea of masks from the start, basically gathered with others almost to flaunt that they were doing it.Okay,ya got me, I(we) certainly wouldn't flaunt it that's assinine .I've had one of my very closest and dear friends pass 8-16-20 from covid -he 12 yrs previous had bloodclots on his lungs - so in the high risk catagory.On the flip side at the food pantry where I volunteer a member I've come know very well over the last 3 1/2 yrs lost her cousin this April who had a reaction to the shot,passing on the very same day after getting vaxed - because of social urging.

 I know 3 people as I'm typing this who have had nothing ,but would be described as physical decline since they've gotten vaxinated - all over 60 I might add but were by no means frail or invalid.One more serious than I'd expect - all 3 said don't get the vax.On the flip side(again) many have been told thru blood tests they had virus - and they never knew it. So reality exists from both stand points. Since I can only remember once in my adult life having influenza really bad probably from staying with mom a lot in the hospital with a broken hip.Doctor said i most definitely got it there as i spent many nights there as she was having problems

So now after 1-2-3 vaxes that are adding up I'm simply trusting myself and that's how I'm playing my hand by erring on the side of caution



« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 04:29:34 PM by MrNubbz »
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Honestbuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15225 on: August 25, 2021, 03:10:30 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kathy-hochul-adds-12k-deaths-to-covid-death-count

 This is NOT political.   No “ side”
Of the isle is innocent here. 

Just more evidence of why there is such widespread mistrust out there.  

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
-Mark Twain


Mdot21

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15227 on: August 25, 2021, 06:01:58 PM »
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/kathy-hochul-adds-12k-deaths-to-covid-death-count

 This is NOT political.  No “ side”
Of the isle is innocent here.

Just more evidence of why there is such widespread mistrust out there. 
Probably just readjusting it to the real count seeing as that piece of shit Cuomo passed legislation which gave healthcare companies & nursing home companies immunity from lawsuits- then he essentially forced nursing homes to take in COVID positive patients- a disease which kills mainly the elderly and of which roughly 50% OF ALL DEATHS in the country have been nursing home deaths- then he tried to cover it up and was caught fudging the coronavirus death counts in NY to make it look like it wasn't a disaster and the epicenter of the virus- which it clearly was.

Edited by utee94: I left the first paragraph, and cut the second and third, which were entirely political and unrelated to Coronavirus.  If you feel compelled to discuss that, take it somewhere else.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2021, 06:08:24 PM by utee94 »

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15228 on: August 25, 2021, 06:04:39 PM »
https://theconversation.com/are-vaccines-making-viruses-more-dangerous-45424

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/leaky-vaccines-can-produce-stronger-versions-of-viruses-072715
That's great. An article from 2015 and one from sometime earlier than 2019 but is listed as being updated in 2019... Both dealing with chickens.

Is there any evidence that the COVID vaccine is "leaky" in this sense?

Mdot21

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15229 on: August 25, 2021, 06:09:38 PM »
That's great. An article from 2015 and one from sometime earlier than 2019 but is listed as being updated in 2019... Both dealing with chickens.

Is there any evidence that the COVID vaccine is "leaky" in this sense?
It absolutely is "leaky". The COVID vaccines are "leaky" and not "perfect" by definition. Perfect vaccines prevent illness and prevent transmission. The COVID vaccines do not prevent illness nor do they prevent transmission. There is case after case of "breakthrough" infections where people who are fully vaccinated get sick and/or transmit the virus. 


These less-than-perfect vaccines create a “leaky” barrier against the virus. Vaccinated individuals may get sick but have less severe symptoms, but the virus survives long enough to transmit to others, which allows it to survive and spread throughout a population.

“Our research demonstrates that the use of leaky vaccines can promote the evolution of nastier ‘hot’ viral strains that put unvaccinated individuals at greater risk,” Nair said.

Mdot21

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15230 on: August 25, 2021, 06:14:12 PM »
Because these vaccines are leaky- the more we vaccinate- the more we put the unvaccinated at greater risk from catching a beefed up super-bug strain that will hit like a ton of bricks and make the previous strains look like mickey mouse.

For some reason this isn't being talked about. At all. It should be. It gives huge incentive for people to go get vaccinated. I was on the fence- but reading that scared the shit out of me. I'm going to get the vax.

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15231 on: August 25, 2021, 06:32:11 PM »
It absolutely is "leaky". The COVID vaccines are "leaky" and not "perfect" by definition. Perfect vaccines prevent illness and prevent transmission. The COVID vaccines do not prevent illness nor do they prevent transmission. There is case after case of "breakthrough" infections where people who are fully vaccinated get sick and/or transmit the virus.


These less-than-perfect vaccines create a “leaky” barrier against the virus. Vaccinated individuals may get sick but have less severe symptoms, but the virus survives long enough to transmit to others, which allows it to survive and spread throughout a population.

“Our research demonstrates that the use of leaky vaccines can promote the evolution of nastier ‘hot’ viral strains that put unvaccinated individuals at greater risk,” Nair said.

Because these vaccines are leaky- the more we vaccinate- the more we put the unvaccinated at greater risk from catching a beefed up super-bug strain that will hit like a ton of bricks and make the previous strains look like mickey mouse.

For some reason this isn't being talked about. At all. It should be. It gives huge incentive for people to go get vaccinated. I was on the fence- but reading that scared the shit out of me. I'm going to get the vax.
No vaccine is perfect. Some people don't have immune systems that respond to vaccination. Vaccination is a numbers game. The goal is to reduce prevalence in a population such that those who don't have proper immune response to the vaccine don't encounter the virus.

We've seen natural immunity to COVID, people who have actually had the virus and tested positive, have reinfection. It's rare, as are breakthrough infections. But immunity, whether naturally-acquired or vaccine-induced, isn't perfect. 

When we look at other diseases for which we have vaccines, we see similar things. Two doses of MMR are only 97% effective against measles. That means that as many as 3% of people who are vaccinated but encounter measles in the wild would actually contract the disease.

The good COVID vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna, are around 95% effective two weeks after the second dose at preventing symptomatic disease. So potentially less effective at preventing asymptomatic disease that would show up positive via testing. 

The big difference is that measles is mostly rare in the US, so the 3% who might be susceptible to it will likely NEVER encounter it. That's because almost everyone in the US has been vaccinated. That's not the case with COVID, because of the huge proportion of the population who is unvaccinated. 

If you want to claim that the COVID vaccine is a "leaky" vaccine, you're gonna have to bring better evidence. Not saying you're wrong, but nothing you've said so far justifies it.

 

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