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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14994 on: August 17, 2021, 04:52:55 PM »
What about those people who are educated. Extremely well educated and extremely well informed and are deciding not to take the vaccine because they feel they are young and healthy and their odds of having any serious complications are close to nothing. Are they just wrong or have they use the same fax as you and I to come to a different decision?

Why are you assuming that everybody that does not get the vaccination is not educated or misinformed?
I don't think it's that. 

I think it's fear. The reasons that they come up with rationalizations for that fear. 

Again, the issue with the COVID vaccine (and most other vaccines) is that you have to choose to get it, whereas getting a disease is something that happens to you

Educated people can still be afraid, and they can sound FAR more eloquent than morons when they rationalize that fear with plausible reasoning. 

That was why I brought up the "long term effects" thing. The great thing about it is that it is non-falsifiable. Someone who cites fear of long-term effects doesn't have to bring any evidence, because their very complaint is that we don't have long-term data so we can't have evidence. You can't convince them otherwise, because there's always a longer term. And by doing this they can avoid the vaccine until it's no longer an issue. 

I've mentioned in this thread the psychological difference between choosing a vaccine and "taking your chances" with the virus. I think all available evidence that we have today says that the vaccine is far safer across basically all age groups. But the evidence isn't strong enough to overcome the psychological hurdle for a lot of people.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14995 on: August 17, 2021, 05:08:26 PM »
I should point out that there is a very significant negative connotation to the term "anti-vaxxer", because of the last two decades of kids, autism, measles outbreaks, etc. 

However there is a completely different version of anti-vaxxer that exists. These are people who think that kids should have all these vaccines, but never get any vaccines themselves. Flu vaccine? Nope. 10-year tetanus booster? Nope. COVID vaccine? Nope. 

They're not anti-vaccine, they just will always find a rationalization for why THEY don't need one. They totally support other people getting them though!

FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14996 on: August 17, 2021, 05:10:56 PM »
May be an image of 1 person, beard and text that says 'Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. George Bernard Shaw'
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14997 on: August 17, 2021, 05:22:39 PM »
HB:

Why does Covid vaccination not follow the same logic as smallpox vaccinations and polio vaccinations did?  For 99% of the people who refuse to get vaccinated, it's politics.  They're on the side where they demonstrate fealty to their political leader by not getting vaccinated and not wearing masks, while demanding that the economy be fully opened up.

IMO, there are public health considerations that supersede an individual "right" to not be vaccinated.  That's just my opinion about morality of anti-vaxxing.

Legally, I say again, there is no constitutional right not to be vaccinated.  If there's no law mandating vaccination, then obviously, the anti-vaxxer can give the middle finger to everyone else in society and refuse to get vaccinated.  But if/when that law comes down, then anti-vaxxers can't hide behind their "rights."

Re your rhetoric below:
I do not assume that I personally have the right to make anybody's decision for them.  I do believe that the government--which we collectively control through our votes--can abridge certain rights during emergencies, and I suspect that you would to if Covid-19 weren't the issue.  There are many examples of government abridgements of "rights" during emergencies.  Burn bans during droughts.  Curfews during riots.  Quarantines during pandemics.  Speech limitations during wars.  Do you see those as being fundamentally different from the current situation with Covid?  If so, please explain why.

You implicitly expecting that I should never agree with anything OAM says is an example of the politicization of this issue.  He's left-of-center, therefore I am supposed to disagree with everything he posts.  That's wrong.  I don't check to see what you have posted, or what betarho has posted, or what Afro has posted, or what Utee has posted, and trim my argument accordingly.  I just post what I think is right in response to what I think is wrong.
"Why does Covid vaccination not follow the same logic as smallpox vaccinations and polio vaccinations did?"

    You are debating yourself here.  I never said or implied that it shouldn't.  Its a good argument- but I have never weighed in on it- since it is not law as of this moment. If you want to make a conversation that it should be law, I am sure it would be interesting and we could have some good debate.

They're on the side where they demonstrate fealty to their political leader by not getting vaccinated and not wearing masks, while demanding that the economy be fully opened up.   




I am calling bulljive.  simply not backed up by any facts, and in fact the data says otherwise.  And ultimately- this is what I am (respectfully) calling you out on. It has nothing to do with politics-regardless of how hard you try to make it that way.  First of all- there are no leaders I am aware of espousing not to get vaccinated, (there certainly was last year during election season, by one party not in the oval office- so I will concede you that as being political)or to not wear masks.  Secondly- the data says those most likely to not get vaccinated are in 3 distinct categories, the young, Blacks and Hispanics.  Look at the voting data if you do want to make this political-- who won the overwhelming majority of votes in all three categories??

 I could not care less if you agree with OFA. What I am saying is this is the kind of stuff he constantly posts- political leaning false narratives.  And like you- insults those who disagree, by putting them all into one category, which is not even close to reality.


 If you feel it should be law- that's fine. I would have to think that through before I could agree or disagree. But you keep insinuating that the personal choice that everyone (you said 99%) who chooses not to get vaccinated is political- which is simply wrong.  And you are assuming everyone falls into your polarized groups- but wrong again.  I know lots of people who will not be getting vaccinated (not closely I admit, since as of last week everyone of my close circle of friends and family is- I won the last person over) and are wearing masks without complaint. And these are people who do not appear to know or care about politics.



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847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14998 on: August 17, 2021, 05:46:36 PM »
May be an image of text that says 'FL- Effective Reproduction Number. Rt Ry the average number people who will become infected by person infected at time the near future. it's below 1.0, COVID-19 cases will decrease in the near future. 4.0 it's above 1.0, COVID-19 cases will increase in 3.0 2.0 1.0 2/1 3/1 4/1 5/1 6/1 7/1 8/1 9/1 10/1 11/1 12/1 1/1 2/1 3/1 4/1 5/1 0.91 6/1 7/1 8/1'
I hope this is accurate. Tough to say right now. I'm seeing the curve flatten on the below, but still moving in the wrong direction obviously.


U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14999 on: August 17, 2021, 05:52:53 PM »
I pulled it from FB, gotta be accurate
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

bayareabadger

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15000 on: August 17, 2021, 06:07:26 PM »
What about those people who are educated. Extremely well educated and extremely well informed and are deciding not to take the vaccine because they feel they are young and healthy and their odds of having any serious complications are close to nothing. Are they just wrong or have they use the same fax as you and I to come to a different decision?
I’d assume the question would probably jump to the possibility that vaccinated people are less likely to carry it and therefore expose others who can’t get the vaccine for some reason of another.

But the more interesting part is this “They feel they are young and healthy and their odds of having any serious complications are close to nothing.” This gets into sort of an odd spot. The chances of vaccine complications are very likely closer to nothing. And people all the time are good at deciding the odds are in their favor in less than ideal situations. (The odds that come thing bad will happen when you drive drunk are actually pretty low, but it’s not a choice we really let people make). 

This isn’t to speak on the policy element, more that the idea that “I think I’ll be fine” is one that is often wrong and boxed in plenty of times when needed. Likewise, people often overstate risks of certain things that likely won’t happen to them. It’s a fascinating bit of psychology. 

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15001 on: August 17, 2021, 06:34:52 PM »
I’d assume the question would probably jump to the possibility that vaccinated people are less likely to carry it and therefore expose others who can’t get the vaccine for some reason of another.

But the more interesting part is this “They feel they are young and healthy and their odds of having any serious complications are close to nothing.” This gets into sort of an odd spot. The chances of vaccine complications are very likely closer to nothing. And people all the time are good at deciding the odds are in their favor in less than ideal situations. (The odds that come thing bad will happen when you drive drunk are actually pretty low, but it’s not a choice we really let people make). 

This isn’t to speak on the policy element, more that the idea that “I think I’ll be fine” is one that is often wrong and boxed in plenty of times when needed. Likewise, people often overstate risks of certain things that likely won’t happen to them. It’s a fascinating bit of psychology. 

Amen.  To the extent that you were saying those who choose not to vaccinate are making what I would feel is the wrong decision - I fully agree.

and given the opportunity I always tell them that.

Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15002 on: August 17, 2021, 07:12:54 PM »
May be an image of 1 person, beard and text that says 'Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. George Bernard Shaw'
Somebody put it this way.  "It's not what we don't know that gets us in trouble.  It's what we think we know that just ain't so."
Play Like a Champion Today

utee94

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15003 on: August 17, 2021, 07:41:58 PM »
Oh yeah, well...



OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15004 on: August 17, 2021, 08:49:03 PM »
What about those people who are educated. Extremely well educated and extremely well informed and are deciding not to take the vaccine because they feel they are young and healthy and their odds of having any serious complications are close to nothing. Are they just wrong or have they use the same fax as you and I to come to a different decision?

Why are you assuming that everybody that does not get the vaccination is not educated or misinformed?
That's called being selfish.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15005 on: August 17, 2021, 09:00:05 PM »
I was watching local news this morning and they were interviewing a lady who was not yet vaccinated, and she said although she had no medical reason not to get vaccinated, she just was unsure about getting the vaccine.

She was wearing a mask, and said she was very concerned about the risks associated with the virus, and stated that she thought we should all just wear masks to help slow the spread.

So... I guess there's also that group of people.


We call them freeriders.

Honestbuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15006 on: August 17, 2021, 09:06:56 PM »
That's called being selfish. 
Can’t disagree.  
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #15007 on: August 17, 2021, 09:15:47 PM »
May be an image of text that says 'Have faith in the Pfizer vaccine. Don't forget they make Viagra. If they can raise the dead... They can save the living'
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

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