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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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utee94

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14826 on: August 12, 2021, 08:52:00 AM »
Trends in Europe continue, death rate remains lower than in the previous surge, a lot lower.

I am a bit surprised US hospitals are reportedly filling up, close to cap in some areas.
In our area, it's not entirely due to COVID.  There is a very nasty strain of RSV ("respiratory syncytial virus") that is going around, and putting a lot of people into the hospital.  This normally doesn't surge until midwinter, and this is the worst they've seen in decades.

Many of us noted over a year ago, that going a year without normal human interaction, was likely to result in a surge of more normal, non-COVID illness, once things started opening back up.

CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14827 on: August 12, 2021, 09:32:27 AM »
Adding to previous post:

Betarhoalphadelta wrote a great post the other day regarding things that could save just one life, like eliminating access to fast food, decreasing the speed limit, etc.

It is really the same debate. There’s no chance we are all going to agree at what the level is, but at some level individuals are going to have to make choices that will impact not only their own safety and that of others.

And when those lines are drawn, such as deciding what a speed limit is, I do tend to favor those rules being set at the most local level. But I also believe that some of those rules should be set at the individual level.

This is probably not the best analogy but whether kids wear a mask in school is a kin to how much fast food they are allowed to eat. I just don’t think any level of government has the right to tell an adult and furthermore what they allow their children to eat. All you can do is educate them, encourage them and ask how they’re doing but in the end they have to make that decision for themselves.
HB:

Thanks for the responses.

I have to say that how much kids (over)eat and what actions are necessary and proper in the face of a pandemic are not very much alike.
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CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14828 on: August 12, 2021, 09:49:52 AM »
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FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14829 on: August 12, 2021, 09:52:18 AM »
They took the bar! The whole f***ing bar!
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14830 on: August 12, 2021, 10:12:03 AM »
It is really the same debate. There’s no chance we are all going to agree at what the level is, but at some level individuals are going to have to make choices that will impact not only their own safety and that of others.

And when those lines are drawn, such as deciding what a speed limit is, I do tend to favor those rules being set at the most local level. But I also believe that some of those rules should be set at the individual level.

This is probably not the best analogy but whether kids wear a mask in school is a kin to how much fast food they are allowed to eat. I just don’t think any level of government has the right to tell an adult and furthermore what they allow their children to eat. All you can do is educate them, encourage them and ask how they’re doing but in the end they have to make that decision for themselves.

I have to agree with @CWSooner on this one. 

The better analogy to masks is speed limits, not how much food a kid is allowed to eat.

While there are negative externalities to overfeeding a child with a trash diet (later health care costs, some of which may end up being borne by taxpayers), the primary effect of overfeeding a child is that it's screwing up that child's health. 

Whereas in the middle of a pandemic, where we're dealing with a contagious virus and a respiratory disease, it's a completely different thing. Because one person, knowingly or unknowingly, might acquire the virus and transmit it to someone vulnerable, there are times when we have to make policies to reduce that spread that override individual choice, because the decision to wear a mask or not doesn't only affect the individual. 

We wouldn't set speed limits at 65 mph in a residential area because it would likely cause too many crashes and deaths, because the ability for one person to hurt an innocent other is MUCH more likely if we do. Yet at the same time we don't set speed limits at 25 mph on the freeway, because we have determined that the cost to society of slower travel is worse than the death toll of freeway crashes--which aren't trivial numbers. 

I personally don't feel it really matters either way whether kids have to wear masks in school. I don't see it as some horrible thing that will hurt them (as some do here), and given the absolutely minimal impact on kids from this virus, don't think it's saving them. I *did* feel that kids should have to wear masks in school before the vaccine availability was widespread, though, because although child-to-adult transmission appears to be less common than adult-to-adult transmission, adults who were vulnerable had no real recourse to protect themselves. But now that we have the vaccines, they do.

All that said, I disagree with the idea that a state government should prohibit local governments from enacting more restrictive measures than the state itself requires. If Broward's school board or county gov't thinks it's necessary to have a mask mandate in schools to reduce spread, I think that should be Broward's decision, not made in Tallahassee. 

Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14831 on: August 12, 2021, 10:39:54 AM »
I think school boards should make the decision as well.  I don't find wearing a mask to be all that onerous personally.  If it helps SOME, it's worth it, cost:benefit.

By some, I mean ten percent or so, my guess on mask effectiveness.  It might be 15% for sophisticated folks like us.

Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14832 on: August 12, 2021, 10:43:53 AM »
I had a followup with my cadiologist this AM.  I asked the nurse how folks in the office were doing, she said fine.  She said the hospital is in good shape capacity wise.  This is a large complex with a very recent large addition.  It is amazing how complicated these places become over time, every building has different numbering schemes.



I'm doing well also.


Honestbuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14833 on: August 12, 2021, 10:49:39 AM »
HB:

Thanks for the responses.

I have to say that how much kids (over)eat and what actions are necessary and proper in the face of a pandemic are not very much alike.
Agree.  Just couldn’t quickly come up with the best analogy. 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14834 on: August 12, 2021, 10:51:16 AM »
I think school boards should make the decision as well.  I don't find wearing a mask to be all that onerous personally.  If it helps SOME, it's worth it, cost:benefit.

By some, I mean ten percent or so, my guess on mask effectiveness.  It might be 15% for sophisticated folks like us.
Let's say it's 10%.

My point is that 10% is meaningful when 0% of the country is vaccinated. But when most of the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, let's say 70%, a 10% improvement only will show up at 3% reduction in the results.

Or to put it another way, if masks are 10% effective at reducing spread while vaccination is 90% at reducing spread, getting one more person vaccinated is as important as convincing nine more people to wear masks. After all, if you're vaccinated, wearing a mask only chances your chances of spread from a 90% reduction to a 91% reduction.

The focus should be on getting people vaccinated, not on masking.

FearlessF

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14835 on: August 12, 2021, 10:53:58 AM »
yes, but we have shown that masks can be forced on folks

so far forcing vaccines has been spotty
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longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14836 on: August 12, 2021, 11:06:11 AM »
Let's say it's 10%.

My point is that 10% is meaningful when 0% of the country is vaccinated. But when most of the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, let's say 70%, a 10% improvement only will show up at 3% reduction in the results.

Or to put it another way, if masks are 10% effective at reducing spread while vaccination is 90% at reducing spread, getting one more person vaccinated is as important as convincing nine more people to wear masks. After all, if you're vaccinated, wearing a mask only chances your chances of spread from a 90% reduction to a 91% reduction.

The focus should be on getting people vaccinated, not on masking.

Which takes us back to kids under 18 not being masked but unvaccinated teachers should be
School Boards should be emphasizing teachers getting vaccinated not forced masking the students
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CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14837 on: August 12, 2021, 11:08:18 AM »
Let's say it's 10%.

My point is that 10% is meaningful when 0% of the country is vaccinated. But when most of the elderly and vulnerable are vaccinated, let's say 70%, a 10% improvement only will show up at 3% reduction in the results.

Or to put it another way, if masks are 10% effective at reducing spread while vaccination is 90% at reducing spread, getting one more person vaccinated is as important as convincing nine more people to wear masks. After all, if you're vaccinated, wearing a mask only chances your chances of spread from a 90% reduction to a 91% reduction.

The focus should be on getting people vaccinated, not on masking.
That's the rub.  If everyone gets vaccinated, there will be virtually no need for masks.
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Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14838 on: August 12, 2021, 11:10:38 AM »
I certainly agree vaccination is the far more important goal, but we can't yet for under 12.  I'm for doing anything small that is helpful and not really very intrusive.

There really is quite a lot of vaccine "hysteria" out there, folks who want nothing to do with it and post all sorts of weird web sites claiming it has killed 4,000 people directly and so forth.  With confirmation bias driving opinions, folks find what they want to read and claim anything else is "fake news" purveyed by Bill Gates andthe NWO.


Honestbuckeye

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #14839 on: August 12, 2021, 11:13:49 AM »
I have to agree with @CWSooner on this one.

The better analogy to masks is speed limits, not how much food a kid is allowed to eat.

While there are negative externalities to overfeeding a child with a trash diet (later health care costs, some of which may end up being borne by taxpayers), the primary effect of overfeeding a child is that it's screwing up that child's health.

Whereas in the middle of a pandemic, where we're dealing with a contagious virus and a respiratory disease, it's a completely different thing. Because one person, knowingly or unknowingly, might acquire the virus and transmit it to someone vulnerable, there are times when we have to make policies to reduce that spread that override individual choice, because the decision to wear a mask or not doesn't only affect the individual.

We wouldn't set speed limits at 65 mph in a residential area because it would likely cause too many crashes and deaths, because the ability for one person to hurt an innocent other is MUCH more likely if we do. Yet at the same time we don't set speed limits at 25 mph on the freeway, because we have determined that the cost to society of slower travel is worse than the death toll of freeway crashes--which aren't trivial numbers.

I personally don't feel it really matters either way whether kids have to wear masks in school. I don't see it as some horrible thing that will hurt them (as some do here), and given the absolutely minimal impact on kids from this virus, don't think it's saving them. I *did* feel that kids should have to wear masks in school before the vaccine availability was widespread, though, because although child-to-adult transmission appears to be less common than adult-to-adult transmission, adults who were vulnerable had no real recourse to protect themselves. But now that we have the vaccines, they do.

All that said, I disagree with the idea that a state government should prohibit local governments from enacting more restrictive measures than the state itself requires. If Broward's school board or county gov't thinks it's necessary to have a mask mandate in schools to reduce spread, I think that should be Broward's decision, not made in Tallahassee.
Fair argument.  Very sound
I don’t know what the exact analogy is but I can’t use something like speed limits which is clearly something that is set to varying degrees. You can’t do masks that way. It’s an all or nothing thing so you have to find an analogy that is an all or nothing thing.

again, back to the science and the data, there are no comprehensive studies in existence which illustrate that masks are effective in the slowing of the spread of Covid or Delta. None. There are some studies which are maybe not conclusive but certainly point towards masks doing more harm to children both physically and psychologically.

It Gets back to what you said in one of your other posts. The vaccine is available and people have a choice of whether or not to get it. Forcing people to wear masks so those who are vaccinated can be protected, especially in the face of no evidence to support that it even works, it’s just not something I feel a school board or any government has the right to mandate.  But I understand and respect a different opinion.

The bigger point I was making for a certain cuckoo poster was that there are three scenarios here under the governor Abbott and governor DeSantis executive order:

1. you want your kids to wear masks at school, you get your way.
2. you don’t want your kids to wear masks at school, you get your way.
3. you want to control what other people must do, You do not get your way.

it’s a win-win for those who want to control and be responsible for their own decisions. It’s a lose for those who want to control others.  So, the only thing being “forbidden” is controlling others personal decisions.


any mandate or position automatically eliminates number one or number two and grants number three.  Being consistent with your previous position about having to wear masks you would then agree with this but you don’t. 
Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.
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