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Topic: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas

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MaximumSam

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6188 on: July 01, 2020, 10:01:38 AM »
Why would we expect a "second wave" this fall?

Why wouldn't we expect to see a rise in cases in Europe as they also reopen?


I've gone back and forth about it. I certainly don't think we can rule it out. Antibody immunity seems likely to reduce over time. Indoors transmission appears to be much easier than outdoors. Flu season will definitely impact hospital capacity (could it also increase mortality?).  

Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6189 on: July 01, 2020, 10:03:24 AM »
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/01/pfizer-stock-jumps-after-it-reports-positive-data-in-early-stage-coronavirus-vaccine-trial.html

Some positive news on the vaccine front, but it appears this will be early next year at best.  I suspect IF we can vaccinate 60% of the population or so, this thing would hit an R naught wall.

847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6190 on: July 01, 2020, 10:15:39 AM »
I like that one.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6191 on: July 01, 2020, 10:30:55 AM »
I'm interested in what alternative course should have been followed.  Reopen later?  Doesn't that just delay the inevitable?  Reopen less?  I can see that, I think we could manage without gyms and bars.  Beauty parlors?  They start to get necessary at some point, and they have taken precautions.

So, anyone decrying the steps taken could perhaps outline what course should have been followed.  I think keeping everything closed for months and months is clearly not feasible, and in any event just delays the inevitable.  So, it's easy to sneer at the ignorant governors, but perhaps not so easy to propose an alternative path that makes sense.
I think people really missed (and the gov't didn't stress) that reopening restaurants and/or bars did NOT mean that you should go hang out with friends from outside your household at said restaurants and bars. 

A few examples:

  • Coworker in Austin, when they reopened, was excited to go out to brunch with her girlfriends. It was 4 of them (none from the same household obviously), but if one of them was asymptomatic/presymptomatic and contagious, it likely would have resulted in close to 3 additional unnecessary cases plus whoever they spread it to down the road.
  • My wife and I, since it has reopened, have gone to our wine bar every other Friday (when we don't have the kids). We try to be smart about it--there's plenty of room on the patio for social distancing. We wear masks whenever we're not at our table. But we've seen multiple other tables where it is *clear* that it's a collection of people from different households. People are just out meeting friends, and there's no social distancing within the confines of their table. Again, even one asymptomatic/presymptomatic contagious case means the potential start of a whole new cluster of infections.
  • One of the patients at my wife's office was either showing symptoms and needed to be test, or was actually positive (I don't recall which). She was arguing with the doctor that Newport Beach wasn't a problem because nobody she knew had it (Narrator: Newport Beach is a hot spot in OC). She was also arguing that she couldn't have gotten it because she was being so careful (Narrator: she was not being careful--she was going out to dinner with other couples every night since restaurants had reopened). 

That's one advantage to closing bars while leaving restaurants open. Bars are almost by default a gathering place for people from different households. Much like the beaches, it's not like most young single people are going to a bar alone. There have been numerous stories of bars causing clusters. 

Restaurants are sometimes a gathering place for people from separate households, but probably easier to take good precautions than bars, and a lot of time restaurants are for families or couples who can't distance from each other anyway. I do know a few restaurants here have needed to close temporarily due to staff contracting COVID, but I haven't heard of many issues where restaurants have caused a cluster of infections within their patrons. 

Gyms are less of an issue, as long as they have proper precautions in place (all equipment wiped down with sanitary wipes between users, anyone not doing cardio needs a mask, physical distancing / occupancy restrictions, etc). Same with beauty salons/etc. My wife got her nails done, and there were pretty extreme sanitation/distancing measures being observed. Plastic barriers between chairs, distancing between chairs, everyone (patron and salon worker) masked, hand sanitizer both before and after treatment, etc. Much like a haircut you can't exactly be 6' physically distant and still receive service, but they seemed to be doing a good job from what she said. 

But if we don't hammer home the idea that households should try to mix as little as possible to avoid the spread, it doesn't matter what we do or don't reopen because it's PEOPLE that spread this thing to each other with their behavior. Businesses being open just make it easier for people to be stupid together. We're going to have another problem in about 2 weeks from 4th of July parties/BBQs that don't involve businesses being open at all. 


longhorn320

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6192 on: July 01, 2020, 10:31:54 AM »
They won't let me give blood anymore. The burnt orange color scares the hell out of the doctors.

Cincydawg

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6193 on: July 01, 2020, 10:42:29 AM »
I personally heard loud and clear around here that reopening didn't mean "back to normal" and quite a few precautions were emphasized.  We all appreciate that we Americans are a rebellious lot in general, and we hear what we want to hear and disregard the rest.

I'd also note folks in our area have been nearly all "behaving", very few exceptions.  I'd also note out county is showing a relatively low infection rate.  The worst counties are rural, and associated with meat processing plants.  And of course a place can suffer a bad outbreak emanating from just one person at times.

I think the "messenging" on masks could have been a LOT better.

CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6194 on: July 01, 2020, 10:48:49 AM »
Our governor cannot make his mouth say the words, "Wear a mask."

Daddy wouldn't like it.
He now urges people to wear masks.  Better late than never.
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CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6195 on: July 01, 2020, 10:50:27 AM »
Quick Hits: Today’s Top Stories

  • As of Tuesday night, 2,634,432 cases of COVID-19 have been reported in the United States (an increase of 46,410 from yesterday) and 127,410 deaths have been attributed to the virus (an increase of 1,279 from yesterday), according to the Johns Hopkins University COVID-19 Dashboard, leading to a mortality rate among confirmed cases of 4.8 percent (the true mortality rate is likely much lower, between 0.4 percent and 1.4 percent, but it’s impossible to determine precisely due to incomplete testing regimens). Of 32,206,245 coronavirus tests conducted in the United States (648,838 conducted since yesterday), 8.2 percent have come back positive.
  • Dr. Anthony Fauci testified in a Senate hearing yesterday that the United States may begin to see up to 100,000 new coronavirus cases daily. “I can’t make an accurate prediction, but it will be very disturbing, I will guarantee you that,” he warned.
  • The European Union will officially reopen its borders today to residents of 15 countries the bloc deemed to have the coronavirus pandemic under control. The United States is not on the list.
Are COVID Surges Attributable to the Recent Protests?
Over the last month, the two biggest stories in America have been the anti-racism protests sparked by the death of George Floyd and the rapid resurgence of COVID-19 following two months of the virus slowing. The obvious question linking the two: Have weeks of mass assembly and protest been an accelerant to viral transmission?

It’s been difficult to drill down on this question, in part because of accusations of politicization and fuzzy data collection. New York City and San Francisco, for instance, have opted not to have their COVID contact tracers ask potentially infected people whether they attended a protest—a strategy that has undoubtedly made the relationship between protests and the pandemic harder to suss out.
Nevertheless, enough data has trickled in to give us a rough idea of our answer. Based on what we know now, while the George Floyd protests may have presented an increased infection risk to the protesters themselves, it seems they haven’t yet caused broader infection spikes in the cities in which they took place.
Let’s unpack this a little. To begin with, there’s the fact that many protesters have taken steps to cut down on transmission—maintaining some level of social distancing even in a crowd, wearing masks, and, most critically, protesting outdoors, where passing along a critical load of the virus is far more difficult.
This is the reason most frequently cited for why many hoped the protests would not lead to case spikes, but it’s not a sufficient explanation in itself. After all, as any epidemiologist would tell you, all these precautions are simply a matter of managing risk—they might limit spread within a group, but there’s no guarantee they can prevent it.
Sure enough, the data from those cities and states that have kept tabs on infections at protests shows that in many cases some transmission was in fact taking place. In Boston, 400 protesters later tested positive for COVID. In Houston, police officers reported increased cases among their ranks after the protests. And in South Carolina, demonstrators cut off in-person protests early after 13 demonstrators tested positive for the virus.
And yet many of the cities that experienced the biggest protests, like New York, Philadelphia, and Minneapolis, have seen no major changes yet to their former coronavirus trajectories. The city of San Francisco might not be keeping track of protest attendance in its contact tracing, but Alameda County, which includes many of its suburbs, is asking those questions—and county officials say the protests are “not emerging as a risk for the most recent cases that we’re seeing in the county.”
So what gives here? The missing link here appears to be in the behavior not of the protestors but of everyone else. These mass protests didn’t begin back in April, when most of the country was still hermetically sealed away, but in June, when it was already well on its way to reopening. The protesters were the ones making headlines, but the whole country was already beginning to get comfortable mingling again.
Or at least they were getting comfortable, until the protests started. For many, the prospect of major civic unrest proved just as powerful an inducement to stay at home as the virus itself had months before. According to a fascinating new study of cellphone data in 300 U.S. cities from the National Bureau of Economic Research, this actually meant that social distancing increased on the whole in cities with major protests during the days when those protests were at their fiercest.
This one-two punch—that protests may have raised the risk of infection among the marchers but indirectly lowered it in their communities more widely—has been garbled in some press reports, which have erroneously suggested that it demonstrates no link between protests and the pandemic at all. This is both misleading and decreasingly true: Although the protests are ongoing, the major social unrest that accompanied them for much of June has largely subsided. Going by the logic of the NBER report, this would suggest that ongoing protests could be more likely to have a net positive effect on new infections.
On the other side of the coin, some commentators have pointed to the relative youth of many new COVID patients as a strong indicator that protests, overwhelmingly constituted of the young, may have played a major role in the latest surge. There may be something to this—but experts we spoke to point out that young people are also likeliest to be participating in high-risk activities like socializing at bars. As Dr. Anthony Fauci testified yesterday in Congress: “Bars, really not good. Really not good.”
While there are undeniable partisan pressures to think of the latest round of COVID transmission as being simply due to protests or simply due to increased economic activity, the reality is that these things likely feed into one another. One place where the disease has taken off in recent days is Atlanta, a city that was racked by protests and is in a state that was one of the earliest in the nation to begin the reopening process. To suppose there wasn’t some overlap beggars belief; it isn’t as though America is made up of those who protest police brutality and those who get drinks with their friends.It’s the exponential logic of infection: Bars may be more dangerous than protests, but the more bar infections take place, the more dangerous protests will get, and the more protest infections take place, the less safe anyone will be at a bar.

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847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6196 on: July 01, 2020, 10:59:44 AM »
I think people really missed (and the gov't didn't stress) that reopening restaurants and/or bars did NOT mean that you should go hang out with friends from outside your household at said restaurants and bars.

A few examples:

  • Coworker in Austin, when they reopened, was excited to go out to brunch with her girlfriends. It was 4 of them (none from the same household obviously), but if one of them was asymptomatic/presymptomatic and contagious, it likely would have resulted in close to 3 additional unnecessary cases plus whoever they spread it to down the road.
  • My wife and I, since it has reopened, have gone to our wine bar every other Friday (when we don't have the kids). We try to be smart about it--there's plenty of room on the patio for social distancing. We wear masks whenever we're not at our table. But we've seen multiple other tables where it is *clear* that it's a collection of people from different households. People are just out meeting friends, and there's no social distancing within the confines of their table. Again, even one asymptomatic/presymptomatic contagious case means the potential start of a whole new cluster of infections.
  • One of the patients at my wife's office was either showing symptoms and needed to be test, or was actually positive (I don't recall which). She was arguing with the doctor that Newport Beach wasn't a problem because nobody she knew had it (Narrator: Newport Beach is a hot spot in OC). She was also arguing that she couldn't have gotten it because she was being so careful (Narrator: she was not being careful--she was going out to dinner with other couples every night since restaurants had reopened).

That's one advantage to closing bars while leaving restaurants open. Bars are almost by default a gathering place for people from different households. Much like the beaches, it's not like most young single people are going to a bar alone. There have been numerous stories of bars causing clusters.

Restaurants are sometimes a gathering place for people from separate households, but probably easier to take good precautions than bars, and a lot of time restaurants are for families or couples who can't distance from each other anyway. I do know a few restaurants here have needed to close temporarily due to staff contracting COVID, but I haven't heard of many issues where restaurants have caused a cluster of infections within their patrons.

Gyms are less of an issue, as long as they have proper precautions in place (all equipment wiped down with sanitary wipes between users, anyone not doing cardio needs a mask, physical distancing / occupancy restrictions, etc). Same with beauty salons/etc. My wife got her nails done, and there were pretty extreme sanitation/distancing measures being observed. Plastic barriers between chairs, distancing between chairs, everyone (patron and salon worker) masked, hand sanitizer both before and after treatment, etc. Much like a haircut you can't exactly be 6' physically distant and still receive service, but they seemed to be doing a good job from what she said.

But if we don't hammer home the idea that households should try to mix as little as possible to avoid the spread, it doesn't matter what we do or don't reopen because it's PEOPLE that spread this thing to each other with their behavior. Businesses being open just make it easier for people to be stupid together. We're going to have another problem in about 2 weeks from 4th of July parties/BBQs that don't involve businesses being open at all.


This is an exceptional post.

To my dismay and against my wishes, my wife met three girlfriends for dinner last night, outdoors. She does not take kindly to being told what to do, like most people. So, she went anyway, even though I asked her not to. Maybe I should have begged.

I just printed this post and showed it to her. She's now done taking risks. I told her I'd let her know my test results from Monday, and asked that she call her friends and ask them to be tested.

Dammit.
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CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6197 on: July 01, 2020, 11:14:11 AM »
I’m over the coronavirus. I don’t give a shit. Let’s go back to normal and get on with our lives and stop being a nation of scared idiots.
Does wearing a mask = scared idiot?
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CWSooner

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6198 on: July 01, 2020, 11:36:22 AM »
DES MOINES, Iowa (IOWA'S NEWS NOW) — Governor Kim Reynolds says the massive surge in reported COVID-19 recoveries in Iowa over the last 24- hours is because of a revised protocol for determining case recoveries by the Iowa Department of Public Health.

IDPH data shows 5,324 new recoveries during the time between 10:00 Monday morning and 10:00 Tuesday morning - a 30% increase from Monday's total of 17,711 and 23% of the pandemic total of 23,035.

During a press conference Tuesday morning in Steamboat Rock, Governor Reynolds said confirmed COVID-19 cases in Iowa will now be considered recovered 28 days after a positive test unless the state is told otherwise, like in situations of hospitalization. The governor says the change comes because state investigators following up on confirmed cases statuses aren't hearing back from people that have tested positive for the virus.

Aside from the seismic shift in activity and recovery rates because of the adjusted rationale, IDPH's COVID-19 data is showing an increase of 213 confirmed cases of the virus from 10:00 a.m. on June 29 to 10:00 a.m. on June 30. Those new cases come from 3,345 new tests. Five more deaths are also being reported over that 24-hour stretch - meaning 712 Iowans have now died from COVID-19 during the pandemic.


There are now 28,941 total cases confirmed in Iowa from 303,772 tests. The positivity rate is 9.53%.

RMCC data shows 133 current hospitalizations for the virus in Iowa - 14 more than yesterday. 34 of those patients are in the ICU - one fewer than Monday. 20 patients are on ventilators - two more than 24 hours ago.
There is a significant percentage (but I don't know what it is) of people who "recover" but are never the same.  Most commonly, their lungs are permanently scarred.
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847badgerfan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6199 on: July 01, 2020, 11:41:40 AM »
There is a significant percentage (but I don't know what it is) of people who "recover" but are never the same.  Most commonly, their lungs are permanently scarred.

I think that's mostly true for the already compromised, unless I'm missing something.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6200 on: July 01, 2020, 11:52:49 AM »
There is nothing wrong with optimism.
Then I guess there's nothing wrong with repeated disappointments about important things.  
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Coronavirus discussion and Quarantine ideas
« Reply #6201 on: July 01, 2020, 11:58:02 AM »
I think that's mostly true for the already compromised, unless I'm missing something.
Not saying you're incorrect, but I haven't heard that the "longer term" effects are limited to vulnerable groups.

I posted a few days back about a study of people who had long-term symptoms (i.e. dragging on up to 2 months), and the vast majority considered themselves healthy prior to infection. I can't find the link now though... 

I don't think we know enough to figure out these long-term effects yet, and as a result I don't think we should be claiming yet that it's more common among vulnerable populations.

 

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