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Topic: Second CFP Rankings

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bayareabadger

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #182 on: November 25, 2021, 12:51:15 PM »
Can't we all just get along?  It's Thanksgiving for goodness' sake.
I've not eaten yet, but I did exercise, so argument is heart of things until them. (Not at my house. The only argument will be "We all basically agree politically, but can we just not talk about it? The first hour was fine, but I don't care tat this point")

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #183 on: November 25, 2021, 11:25:34 PM »
Rank these teams:
2021 Cincinnati
2020 Cincinnati
2020 Coastal Carolina
2018 UCF
2017 UCF
2016 Western Michigan
2010 TCU
2009 TCU
2009 Cincinnati
2009 Boise St
.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #184 on: November 25, 2021, 11:31:33 PM »
Samford nearly knocked off the Gators. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #185 on: November 26, 2021, 09:18:58 AM »
Miss Lippy's car is green.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #186 on: November 26, 2021, 10:38:54 AM »
But, then, you are saying the results of the games don't actually matter. Win/lose/ who cares? If you reward inferior teams, what is the point of playing the games at all?
I never said this.  Results do matter and Cincy's results aren't that good.  They have exactly one quality win.  They have a chance for a win over Houston which would be a decent win.  Then they have a win over SMU which is nice but certainly nothing to write home about.  

Assuming they win out and using the aforementioned CBS 1-130 rankings, Cincy will have wins over:
  • #6 ND
  • #19 Houston
  • #30 SMU
  • 10 teams ranked #59 and below.  
Against teams in the top-58 they are 3-0.  By way of comparison:
  • OkSU is 4-1 with two more to play
  • OU is 3-1 with one or two more to play
  • ND is 4-1
  • tOSU is 4-1 with one or two more to play
  • Bama is 5-1 with two more to play
The problem for Cincy is that the above (and other P5 teams in the running for their CG's) can't all lose.  
  • Cincy should probably be ahead of the Bedlam loser but the Bedlam winner will move to either 5-1 (OkSU) or 4-1 (OU) with yet another high-end opponent in the B12CG the following week.  
  • There is an argument that Cincy should be ahead of the Ohio State/Michigan loser but the winner will move to 5-1 (tOSU) or probably about the same for Michigan and then get yet another high-end opponent in the B1GCG the following week.  

Then you have Cincy struggling with some REALLY bad teams:
  • #117 USF:  Cincy was w/in 10 points in the 4th quarter and scored a very late TD to make it look decent as a 17 point win but USF is a HORRIBLE team.  They are 2-9 and when they played P5 teams they got slaughtered 45-0 by NCST and 42-20 by Florida (after trailing 35-3 and outscoring UF's reserves 17-7)
  • #108 Tulane:  Cincy only led 14-12 at the half and scored 10 points in the final seven minutes to turn a pathetic nine point win into a merely unimpressive 19 point win but Tulane is also a HORRIBLE team.  They are 2-9and when they played Ole Miss they got slaughtered 61-21.  They did "only" lose to Oklahoma by five but note that unlike the Cincy/Tulane game where Cincy scored the late points, in the Tulane/OU game the Sooners had a pretty comfortable 40-22 lead heading into the fourth quarter and Tulane scored 13 points late to make it look closer than it was.  
  • #102 Indiana:  Cincy struggled mightily with Indiana.  They trailed as late as the fourth quarter and scored 15 points in the fourth to make it look better.  Even ignoring the fact that the game was MUCH closer than the final score indicates, Indiana has bigger losses to Iowa, PSU, tOSU, Mich, Rutgers, and MN.  SIX B1G teams have better results against IU than the Bearcats.  
  • #99 Navy:  Cincy only won by a TD though to be fair Navy scored 10 fourth quarter points to make this look a bit closer than it was.  Still, Navy is a HORRIBLE team They are 2-8 with bigger losses to Marshall, Air Force, Houston, Memphis, and Notre Dame.  
  • #90 Tulsa:  Cincy won this by eight points but with about a minute to go Tulsa had a first-and-goal at the Cincy 3 yard line and got as close as second-and-goal at the Cincy 1 yard line.  The Bearcats were one yard from potentially going to OT against a HORRIBLE Tulsa team.  

Every team has off weeks, that is understood.  One or two games like this could be attributed to having an off week or perhaps early season growing pains but I listed five games above in which Cincy looked nothing like a NC contender.  That is half of the FBS games they've played so far.  This simply isn't a CFP resume.  

What boggles my mind is the free pass given by a lot of you to Cincy for being G5.  What I mean is that if you look at the five results above and imagine that a legitimate NC Contender such as Georgia, Ohio State, Bama, or Michigan had any of the results listed above.  They would be mocked and criticized far and wide for such a result.  Answer me this:  Why doesn't the same apply to Cincinnati?  


Cincydawg

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #187 on: November 26, 2021, 10:43:54 AM »
I don't think anyone here has given UC a "free pass", they just note they have not lost and have one very good win.  Free pass?   I haven't seen it.  I suspect everyone here expects they get trampled if they are a four seed, or nearly so.  I think they'd be a 10 point dog.

At least.  But they are undefeated.  If they stay that way, they knock ND out I think.  Oklahoma State has a good shot.  Who else gets in ahead of UC if they win out?


medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #188 on: November 26, 2021, 10:56:26 AM »
  • Ahead on SP+: UGA/OSU/Bama/UM/A&M/Wis - Wisconsin won't make CFP; neither will A&M. One of OSU/UM won't make CFP.
  • Ahead on FEI: UGA/OSU/Bama/UM/ND/OkSU/Wis - Wisconsin won't make CFP, and one of OSU/UM won't make CFP. They have H2H over ND so if they are 13-0 conf champ and have H2H, they would likely be a more deserving CFP selection. And there's a chance they could sneak into top 4 with two more wins and with losses from those ahead of them.
  • Ahead on F+: UGA/OSU/Bama/UM/Wis - Wisconsin won't make CFP, and one of OSU/UM won't make CFP. So they could finish top-4.
  • Ahead in FPI: UGA/OSU/Bama/UM/OU/ND/OkSU - at least one of OSU/UM won't make the CFP and at least one of OU/OkSU won't make the CFP. Have H2H over ND so would be a more deserving CFP pick at 13-0 conf champ than ND. So pulling out three of those teams only gets them to #5 behind an OU/OkSU winner (if finishing 12-1 and conf champ), but if those teams split a two-game series they'd likely jump.
Not going to address Massey Composite because it's a poll [or an aggregation of polls], whereas SP+, FEI, and F+ are statistical analysis tools as far as I can tell. I don't know the FPI methodology, so I did include it.

Not mentioned above of course is the possibility that Bama loses again, which as an 11-2 team probably pushes them out of the CFP. So that's one more potential spot opening for Cinci.

If any of these metrics factor in record, it's entirely possible that at 13-0 and with losses to the teams ahead of them, the absolutely could climb into the top 4 in these metrics after the conference championship games.
I don't have access to SP+ but the fact that they are already behind Wisconsin tells me everything I need to know.  I wouldn't put Cincy in ahead of the B1G Champion no matter who wins the B1G.  To win the B1G the Badgers would almost certainly have to beat a decent Minnesota team and then knock of a top-3 tOSU/M winner.  Meanwhile Cincy will be playing #64 ECU and #19 Houston.  As a 10-3 B1G Champion Wisconsin's overall resume would be better than Cincy's resume at 13-0.  Cincy's resume would also be inferior to the tOSU/M winner (eitehr 12-1 or 11-2) and also the tOSU/M loser (10-2) so I'd have at least two B1G teams ahead of the Bearcats.  They'd also obviously be behind at least one SEC team.  Then there is the B12.  The possible B12 Champions are:
  • 12-1 OkSU:  OkSU wins Bedlam then beats Baylor or OU in the B12CG
  • 12-1 OU:  OU sweeps OkSU
  • 11-2 OkSU:  OkSU loses Bedlam then beats OU in the B12CG
  • 11-2 OU:  OU loses Bedlam, Baylor loses to TxTech, OU beats OkSU in the B12CG
  • 11-2 Baylor:  Baylor beats TxTech and OkSU
Any of those are better overall resumes than Cincy's.  

Same for FEI.  

Same for F+

Same for FPI.  

They simply aren't a top-4 team and while you are right that either Bama or UGA and either tOSU or M and either OU or OkSU will lose, one of each will also win.  

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #189 on: November 26, 2021, 10:58:13 AM »
The free pass for Cincinnati can be seen in the CFP's first rankings, specifically with OU.  
Helmet program.
Undefeated.
But penalized, for lackluster wins vs lackluster opponents.  OU was ranked behind 4 one-loss teams.  Why were they penalized like that?  Because they weren't meeting everyone's expectations of them.  Its relative.
Therein lies the free pass - Cincinnati doesn't have the same expectations to live up to.  So their lackluster wins vs lackluster opponents aren't penalized as much or at all.

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #190 on: November 26, 2021, 11:02:53 AM »
We've had people saying they'd rather see a 2-loss B1G or SEC team over Cincinnati, who also argue that the regular season should matter. I say Cincinnati deserves a spot over any 2-loss P5 team. They've forfeited their chance by losing two games
I hate this because it rewards crap schedules.  

Consider the Buckeyes right now.  If they had played Directional Nebraska Teacher's College instead of Oregon back in week 2, right now they'd be 11-0 and safely in under the formulation you listed because their worst-case would be 11-1 with a loss to a team better than any that Cincy played.  

Punishing teams for playing tough schedules will only result in more "KSU style" schedules where everybody takes Bill Snyder's advice to never schedule a loss.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #191 on: November 26, 2021, 11:06:11 AM »
And the other part of the idea of "good enough for the CFP" is that every field is different. 
This is a REALLY good and really important point.  Ohio State has been 12-1 and not gotten in and they've been 12-1 and gotten in.  It wasn't so much because those 12-1 tOSU teams were significantly different from one another, it was because what they were up against was different.  

Go 12-1 and win a P5 Conference you are almost always going to be in but there is at least a theoretical possibility that the other four P5 Conferences will each produce a 13-0 Champion.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #192 on: November 26, 2021, 11:10:26 AM »
The free pass for Cincinnati can be seen in the CFP's first rankings, specifically with OU. 
Helmet program.
Undefeated.
But penalized, for lackluster wins vs lackluster opponents.  OU was ranked behind 4 one-loss teams.  Why were they penalized like that?  Because they weren't meeting everyone's expectations of them.  Its relative.
Therein lies the free pass - Cincinnati doesn't have the same expectations to live up to.  So their lackluster wins vs lackluster opponents aren't penalized as much or at all.
Exactly.  Oklahoma got knocked for lackluster wins but Cincy didn't.  That is the free pass that Cincy is getting.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #193 on: November 26, 2021, 12:08:49 PM »
Cincy beat ND on the road,  OU didn't.  Who else would you put ahead of Cincy aside from the OSU-UM winner?  ND?  Oklahoma State?  Sure, if they win out.  But right now, who would you have there instead?  If you put UM in you just delay a day.

bayareabadger

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #194 on: November 26, 2021, 01:03:26 PM »
Exactly.  Oklahoma got knocked for lackluster wins but Cincy didn't.  That is the free pass that Cincy is getting. 
They got knocked for looking bad more often. And having one fewer good win.

It is what it is. Half the sport is eliminated by dint of the season starting. And when there might be the smallest chance of a crack in that, folks want to jump and explain, no, there's much moral rectitude in that. (And much of the rectitude is in a "strong schedule" which is in many ways not that controllable and subject to some basic economic whims of the sport).

Is what it is, I suppose. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #195 on: November 26, 2021, 01:56:10 PM »
They got knocked for looking bad more often. And having one fewer good win.

It is what it is. Half the sport is eliminated by dint of the season starting. And when there might be the smallest chance of a crack in that, folks want to jump and explain, no, there's much moral rectitude in that. (And much of the rectitude is in a "strong schedule" which is in many ways not that controllable and subject to some basic economic whims of the sport).

Is what it is, I suppose.
This is pretty much it. 

I actually don't give a crap what happens to Cincinnati. What bothers me is a system that purports to say that half of FBS is in the same sport and division as P5 teams, but which eliminates them from contention every damn year before the season's opening kickoff.

If that is the case, don't even rank them in the CFP rankings. If you'd put 10-3 Wisconsin in over 13-0 Cincinnati, why lie and even rank them at all.

You can either break the P5 away and actually be truthful about who has a chance in this sport, or you should give them an actual chance (i.e. 6+2).  

 

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