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Topic: Second CFP Rankings

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2021, 03:17:05 AM »
Is it odd that OU is penalized for close games vs a weak schedule and Cincinnati maybe isn't?  Or is the win over ND the difference there? 
It is ridiculous. 

Cincinnati is effectively getting the best of both worlds. 

Normally when a G5 team barely beats a mediocre P5 like Indiana we basically pat them on the head and say "good job" but if a NC contender like OU struggles with a mediocre P5 we say "What's wrong with that team?" 

Cincinnati is getting the best of both worlds in that when they struggle against bad teams it isn't held against them but then for some reason we are still pretending that they are a legitimate contender.

MaximumSam

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2021, 07:45:29 AM »
Is it odd that OU is penalized for close games vs a weak schedule and Cincinnati maybe isn't?  Or is the win over ND the difference there? 
Not really. OU has no wins over ranked teams. Cincy has a win over ND. Oregon can be thrown in the same boat - their win over OSU doing a lot of work that covers up the rest of their resume. The other issue is who do you put over Cincy? Oklahoma has no convincing case, at least not yet. Michigan just beat a corpse version of indiana in a performance that wasn't much more impressive than Cincy's. And they are sixth.

Cincydawg

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2021, 07:57:57 AM »
Bama also edged LSU in a bit of a shocker.  Only one team is blowing everyone out, so far, since week one.  That could change Saturday.

FearlessF

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #31 on: November 12, 2021, 12:02:44 PM »
Cincinnati can have whatever they want or the committee wants to give them for a couple more weeks.

Then reality is gonna sit on them hard
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MaximumSam

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #32 on: November 12, 2021, 12:59:15 PM »
Cincinnati can have whatever they want or the committee wants to give them for a couple more weeks.

Then reality is gonna sit on them hard
I mean...maybe. For one, Cincy needs to continue to win, which is no easy task despite what people want to say. But if that happens, because of how weak the rest of college football is, there are some very clear paths for Cincy. Oklahoma could win out and get in. They also might not win another game. Iowa State might be the best team in the B12, and they are 6-3. Ohio State may win out and get in, or may limp to a rough finish, and no matter what happens in the East, Wisconsin suddenly looks like a real threat to win the B1G. Oregon could win out and get in, but does anyone want to put up money betting that Oregon is going to win out?


FearlessF

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #33 on: November 12, 2021, 01:09:23 PM »
oh, Cincy could get in, but they obviously need help from two or three conferences

not only with a few teams dropping, but Cincy could get passed by Okie St., Wake, either of the Michigan schools or even Notre Dame
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MaximumSam

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #34 on: November 12, 2021, 01:12:59 PM »
oh, Cincy could get in, but they obviously need help from two or three conferences

not only with a few teams dropping, but Cincy could get passed by Okie St., Wake, either of the Michigan schools or even Notre Dame
A one loss ND team getting in over undefeated Cincy would be hilarious. I would almost want it to happen just to hear the committee try to justify it

ELA

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #35 on: November 12, 2021, 01:25:40 PM »
A one loss ND team getting in over undefeated Cincy would be hilarious. I would almost want it to happen just to hear the committee try to justify it
Not sure how many listen to Andy Staples' podcast, it's very good, but I like his take the most.

Ari Wasserman literally wants the 4 best to the point that he basically argues for just looking at recruiting rankings, and putting the 4 most talented in.  Staples is not on the "put the 4 best undefeated in, and if there aren't 4, start filling in with 1 loss teams," but acknowledges you play the games for a reason, and at some point winning games has to matter more than how badly you club overmatched teams when looking at the resume.

Strength of Record would always be my default.

FearlessF

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #36 on: November 12, 2021, 01:25:49 PM »
I'm pretty sure it would happen

that Golden Dome is pretty shiny
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FearlessF

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #37 on: November 12, 2021, 01:27:11 PM »
recruiting rankings are not scientifically proven

example:  Clemson
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bayareabadger

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #38 on: November 12, 2021, 02:00:11 PM »
recruiting rankings are not scientifically proven

example:  Clemson
I mean, they’re useful tools. They’ll always have variance. Some teams will hit the peaks and valleys. Not to mention records will do the same.

I think they’re good tools, especially in projecting quality. That said, you need some kind of accomplishment. How much credit you want to give in terms of what can be controlled is up to the one giving credit. And the beauty is that for as much as we might argue about a Cincinnati or Oregon, chances are, there won’t be THAT hard of a decision at the end. 

(bonus points if someone can name what should’ve been the biggest 4/5 argument of the CFP era, but wasn’t for some reason)

FearlessF

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #39 on: November 12, 2021, 02:01:50 PM »
good tool for projecting quality, not for assigning the top 4 most quality teams in any given season
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Cincydawg

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #40 on: November 12, 2021, 02:04:48 PM »
What I see with the champion teams is an elite QB who makes plays, Joe Burrow being the best example I think.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Second CFP Rankings
« Reply #41 on: November 12, 2021, 03:59:47 PM »
I mean...maybe. For one, Cincy needs to continue to win, which is no easy task despite what people want to say. 
This depends.  If they are "just a G5 school" then no, their remaining schedule isn't easy.  They still have to play SMU and ECU which are two pretty good (for G5 teams) teams then USF which is terrible even by G5 standards.  

There are, however, a multitude of problems.  For one thing, SMU lost their last two games.  A couple weeks ago they were undefeated and ranked #19 but now they are 3-2/7-2 with losses to Houston (not too bad) and Memphis (BAD).  Thus, beating SMU isn't going to win them many style points for the simple reason that SMU isn't very good.  

Lets look at SMU:
The Mustangs' only game against P5 competition was at TCU.  It was a back-and-forth game in which the Mustangs only led by more than one score for about seven minutes in the third quarter and another eight minutes in the fourth.  The Mustangs won by one score, 42-34.  Ok, so the Mustangs are a bit better than TCU.  How good is TCU?  Well, they suck.  They fired their coach.  They are 2-4 in the B12 and 4-5 overall.  When TCU played the Sooners who are much maligned for their closer-than-expected wins, the Sooners never trailed and took a two-score lead for good shortly before halftime.  

That is the best game left on Cincy's schedule, then there is ECU, lets look at ECU:
The Pirate's only foray against P5 opposition was a home game against USCe.  ECU took an early 14-0 lead then got outscored 20-3 the rest of the way and lost 20-17.  That is close but how good is USCe?  They suck too.  They are 2-4/5-4.  The two SEC wins were over hapless Vanderbilt and a cratering Florida team.  

Cincy's other scheduled game is against USF, lets look at USF:
The Bulls are horrible even by G5 standards.  They are currently 1-4/2-7 and the two wins came against an equally bad Temple team (1-4/3-6) and FCS FAMU.  The Bulls played two P5 opponents and got drilled both times.  They lost 45-0 to NCST and trailed Florida 35-3 at halftime before outscoring UF 17-7 in a meaningless second half to make it look like a respectable loss at 42-20 but it wasn't.  As I stated, the Gators led 35-3 at the half.  

I used CBS's 1-130 rankings to rank all teams
CBS's 1-130 rankings to rank all teams.  The three remaining scheduled games for Cincy, tOSU, and Bama are:
  • Best remaining opponent:  #7 MSU for Ohio State, #17 Auburn for Bama, #31 SMU for Cincy.  
  • Middle remaining opponent:  #8 Michigan for Ohio State, #26 Arkansas for Bama, #77 ECU for Cincy.  
  • Worst remaining opponent:  #28 Purdue for Ohio State, #111 USF for Cincy, #127 NMST for Bama.  

Cincy's schedule so far isn't all that much worse than the average P5 but every P5 contender is going to play a VASTLY more difficult slate between now and selection than Cincy.  I only listed scheduled games above but the P5's will also have much better opposition in their CG's.  You might point to Houston (Cincy's likely CG opponent) and point out that they are ranked ahead of a number of potential and even likely P5 CG participants but the plain fact is that Houston is wildly overrated based on their numerous wins over cupcakes.  When they stepped onto the field against a P5 opponent they got drilled 38-21 by Texas Tech.  Sure, it was a close game most of the way but Texas Tech is a complete non-factor in the B12 at 2-4/5-4 with a 35 point loss to Texas, a 31 point loss to OU, and a 21 point loss to TCU.  

Look, you can't have it both ways.  Cincy is one of two things.  They are either:
  • A legitimate NC contender, or
  • A G5 team that is good for the G5 but absolute crap compared to legitimate contenders.  

If they are #1 then don't try to tell us that winning on their schedule is "no easy task".  If they are a legit NC contender then the ONLY team on their entire schedule all year long that should challenge them AT ALL is Notre Dame.  

The fact is that they are not a legitimate NC Contender.  They are a G5 team that is pretty good by G5 standards but they aren't even dominating at that level.  


These are tOSU's, Bama's, and Cincy's schedules using the aforementioned CBS 1-130 rankings:

One of these things is not like the others.  Can you tell which one?  

I'll add one final thing.  Cincy's win over ND is a nice win but IMHO, it is a lot easier to pull off a win like that when last weeks' opponent didn't beat you up too badly and you don't realistically have to worry about next weeks' opponent.  Cincy's game against ND came after a bye-week and before a god-awful Temple team.  Their upcoming game against SMU is sandwiched between a god-awful USF and ECU.  Ohio State has an upcoming three-game stretch of #28 PU, #7 MSU, #8 M.  Bama had a three-game stretch earlier this year against #40 MsSt, #11 aTm, and #12 Ole Miss.  Do you think it just might be a little easier when you can spend an extra week or two game-planning for a game because you don't have to worry about the team before them?  

 

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