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Topic: Rank these teams

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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #238 on: December 17, 2020, 08:59:20 AM »
Lol I understand the argument. It's just silly. Right now, as we speak, Cincinnati would likely be favored over Iowa State on a neutral field. Also Cincinnati is undefeated, and ISU is 2 losses away from that. Simply claiming ISU's schedule is tougher is true, but if that's the criteria then what is the point of playing the games? Why go through the whole song and dance in the first place?
You'd have to ask the voters that.  I didn't rank ISU 6th, they did.  And even if Cincinnati would be favored over ISU tomorrow, how many teams ranked below Cincinnati would be favored against the Bearcats?  
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Part of the ISU being ranked 6th is WHEN you lose mattering.  Another silly relic from simple-minded voters.  
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And now people are bitching about Florida only moving down 1 spot.  It throws out the WHEN you lose mattering, but brings up a different point:  the gap between each ranking spot is not equal.  There are narrow gaps between #2 and #3 or there can be a wide gap between the same 2 spots.  Obviously, Florida was ahead of 7th-ranked ISU by a wide margin (and thus, all others below it) so that a loss only dropped the Gators 1 spot.
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All of this has to be taken into consideration.  
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #239 on: December 17, 2020, 09:02:03 AM »
Here, I've changed my mind.
Because it's 2020 and all bets are off, I DEMAND we have an 8-team playoff.
1 vs 8, 2 vs 7, and on.  And the seedings must be:
1 Alabama vs 8 San Jose St
2 Notre Dame vs 7 BYU
3 Ohio State vs 6 Coastal Whathaveyou
4 Clemson vs 5 Cincinnati



After they count up the dead bodies, once and for all the G5 can shut the hell up.
Seriously, let's do this and then the charade of G5 programs having a shot can be put to rest. 
They don't have a shot, but they're told they do.  It's dishonest.  They're in purgatory.  It's 2020, everything is upside-down.  Give the G5 half the spots and watch the carnage.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #240 on: December 17, 2020, 09:18:08 AM »
Last year, Utah got up to 5th and were 11-1.  Why?  They were in the Pac-12 and played a P5 schedule.
In 2008, Utah got up to 8th and were 12-0.  Why?  They were in the MWC and played a G5 schedule. 
In 2004, Utah got up to 5th in the regular season and were 11-0.  Why?  They were in the MWC and played a G5 schedule.
Utah got up to 5th WITH A LOSS because their schedule didn't have 2 losable games on it, but 6+.  It had depth.  They earned their ranking by playing a viable schedule.  

Teams they played OOC in 08 and 04:  Michigan, Texas A&M, Arizona, UNC, Oregon State......some good names there.  But they also played Utah State twice and Weber State. 
But in-conference, when some of your games are against UNLV, New Mexico, and Wyoming...that's the issue.  Maybe Cincinnati does have to go independent.  Maybe they do have to screw up their budget. 
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I feel for these programs, believe it or not.  But they're ignoring the reality of the situation.  Whatever steps they take, the only answer to real change is to force your way into the party.  Whether that means going undefeated 5 straight years or going independent or playing 4 OOC games on the road vs 'likely to be ranked' P5 teams, then do it. 
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Conference affiliation is just like home values - location really matters.  If you have the nicest house in your neighborhood, it puts a ceiling on the value.  IF Cincinnati is the nicest program in the conference, it needs to hire a real estate agent.  I'm not exactly sure it is the nicest program in their conference, but that's a whole other discussion.
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It also probably doesn't help that when the Bearcats got to play in NY6 bowls, they stunk (08 season Orange Bowl, 09 season Sugar).  It shouldn't matter, but it might.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

FearlessF

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #241 on: December 17, 2020, 11:19:33 AM »
Bowden never won in Norman.  He never beat OU period.  FSU beat OU in the 1964 (season) Gator Bowl in the first meeting of the two programs.  Since then, it's been 6-0 OU.  2 wins in Norman, 1 in Tallahassee, 3 in the Orange Bowl.  Bowden was 0-4 in the middle of all that.
yup, he only got one win in Lincoln.  He knew he wouldn't win them all, but he was building street cred with the losses to the helmets.
People respected him for that
I'm sure he cashed a few nice checks along the way
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #242 on: December 17, 2020, 11:21:08 AM »
You’re essentially saying unless they are willing to do away with all practicality and common sense that they just don’t want it enough.
yes
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bayareabadger

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #243 on: December 17, 2020, 12:07:33 PM »

I feel for these programs, believe it or not.  But they're ignoring the reality of the situation.  Whatever steps they take, the only answer to real change is to force your way into the party.  Whether that means going undefeated 5 straight years or going independent or playing 4 OOC games on the road vs 'likely to be ranked' P5 teams, then do it. 
I think all the suggestions point to the simple answer, there isn't such a way, short of bankrolling something that if you could reasonably bankroll it, you wouldn't need to do this in the first place (or just win and win and hope someone lets you in).

Utah did most of the same things as Cincy (did beat Bama once, tho), they just were in the right spot when a desperate and badly run P5 wanted a boost, plus they were a state flagship. FSU had a team at No. 2 heading into the bowls before the great drive for attention. 

They're not allowed because of structural reasons. At a point, it is what it is. So no need to say, "What if they could design a whole schedule out of Nebraska games?" Keep winning, hope a spot in the club opens and understand the rankings are just adornments. 

Brutus Buckeye

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #244 on: December 17, 2020, 12:22:57 PM »
With all the conference realignment that has occurred from the formation of the Big 12 to today, very little has changed with regards to BCS/P5 membership. 

The only net gains (mid-major in 96, P5 today) have been Utah, Louisville and Texas Christian. 

The only net loss (BCS in 96, G5 today) was Temple. 

The rest of the original Big East are all in P5 conferences today. There were a few teams with a brief stint at the BCS level in the revamped Big East, but they all wound up right back where they started when the Big East became the American following its demotion from P5 to G5. A few like Cincy, USF and UConn were able to make the most of it while it lasted, and make a little noise. 

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #245 on: December 17, 2020, 12:50:43 PM »
I think all the suggestions point to the simple answer, there isn't such a way, short of bankrolling something that if you could reasonably bankroll it, you wouldn't need to do this in the first place (or just win and win and hope someone lets you in).

Utah did most of the same things as Cincy (did beat Bama once, tho), they just were in the right spot when a desperate and badly run P5 wanted a boost, plus they were a state flagship. FSU had a team at No. 2 heading into the bowls before the great drive for attention.

They're not allowed because of structural reasons. At a point, it is what it is. So no need to say, "What if they could design a whole schedule out of Nebraska games?" Keep winning, hope a spot in the club opens and understand the rankings are just adornments.
That's a big thing. Cincinnati will NEVER be the draw that Utah is, because it's not a flagship, or even a "flagship-equivalent", i.e. one of two schools in a state that might be considered on par (IU/Purdue, UNC/NCSt, Iowa/ISU, etc). 

With all the conference realignment that has occurred from the formation of the Big 12 to today, very little has changed with regards to BCS/P5 membership.

The only net gains (mid-major in 96, P5 today) have been Utah, Louisville and Texas Christian.

The only net loss (BCS in 96, G5 today) was Temple.

The rest of the original Big East are all in P5 conferences today. There were a few teams with a brief stint at the BCS level in the revamped Big East, but they all wound up right back where they started when the Big East became the American following its demotion from P5 to G5. A few like Cincy, USF and UConn were able to make the most of it while it lasted, and make a little noise.
And I think those are worth looking at. 

Utah I don't think was a desperation play by the PAC-12. In many ways both they and Colorado "fit" the profile of the PAC-12, both are flagship universities in their state, and were pretty natural fits. 

TCU and WVU were a desperation play by the Big 12. They had already lost Nebraska and Colorado to be down to 10, and were losing A&M and Mizzou the next year. They would have been down to 8 and it would have killed the conference IMHO. TCU doesn't improve the footprint of the conference and WVU isn't even remotely close to a geographic fit, so that was purely a numbers play. 

Louisville was also a bit of a numbers game. They were a Big East school that was probably going to be left out of the conference realignment when the Big East fell apart. The teams the ACC wanted when it went to 14 (Pitt/Syracuse, plus ND as a special scheduling arrangement) were invited for 2013. But Maryland ditched the ACC to the B1G and opened up an extra spot. If Maryland hadn't left the ACC, I definitely don't think that Louisville would have been invited to the B1G, so I doubt they would have found a home in the ACC. I'm not sure they would have landed in P5.

So what will get Cincy a potential spot somewhere? Someone else vacating a spot or some conference wanting to increase their numbers further. The Big 12 is out IMHO because they realize that Cincy will dilute them, not improve them, unless someone leaves the conference. Which means unless the B1G and SEC start raiding the ACC [or Big 12] to get to 16, and the ACC [or Big 12] starts considering Cincy just to remain alive, they don't have a home.

847badgerfan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #246 on: December 17, 2020, 12:54:28 PM »
Rutgers has a spot. Hmm.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #247 on: December 17, 2020, 12:58:37 PM »
Rutgers has a spot. Hmm.
I know how much you hate Rutger, but would you really ditch them to pick up Cincinnati? It's not even close. 

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #248 on: December 17, 2020, 01:03:04 PM »
Cincinnati may have to do what Gonzaga did in basketball.
Seriously schedule road games vs top 10 teams and start winning them.  And keep doing that until you're in.  The Zags didn't suddenly start winning more games, but they started winning games vs legit opponents, so they went from being a 12 seed to a 9 to a 4 and now no one bats an eye if they're a 1 seed.
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

847badgerfan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #249 on: December 17, 2020, 01:09:44 PM »
I know how much you hate Rutger, but would you really ditch them to pick up Cincinnati? It's not even close.
I'd rather go back to 11.
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OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #250 on: December 17, 2020, 01:15:52 PM »
Cincinnati is 0-8 vs ranked OOC teams the past 12 years.  That might have something to do with the lack of respect for this year's squad, who couldn't play any OOC games (and thus, has a high school schedule).

“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

OrangeAfroMan

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Re: Rank these teams
« Reply #251 on: December 17, 2020, 01:18:59 PM »
I'd rather go back to 11.
Not 10?  Aside from being a helmet program, had Penn State made itself at home and belong in the B1G?
“The Swamp is where Gators live.  We feel comfortable there, but we hope our opponents feel tentative. A swamp is hot and sticky and can be dangerous." - Steve Spurrier

 

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