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Topic: Population trends random thoughts

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Cincydawg

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #126 on: June 17, 2025, 01:28:56 PM »
Many of our large cities are anchored by water, either a navigable river or an ocean (or bay).  There are a few exceptions, Denver, Atlanta, Dallas, Phoenix.

As noted, some cities have "barriers", like Chicago can't go east.  The urban sprawl gets really bad when there aren't such barriers and folks keep building freeways.

Cincydawg

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #127 on: June 17, 2025, 01:29:41 PM »
Cincy down on the river gets really bad.  

Gigem

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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #129 on: June 17, 2025, 01:56:11 PM »
I've been in 115° to 118°F several times, it feels like you opened your oven, somewhat.  I was in LV in 1980 for a conference and the conference rooms seemed to be all at 65°F, so I had to alternative going in to cool off and out to heat back up.  I was wearing a suit back then.

Palm Springs got over 100°F recently when we were there.  It was somewhat manageable.
When I get to those temps (110+) I feel like I can't even breathe. Just inhaling air that hot feels wrong. 

Even when there's a breeze, it just moves from being an oven to a convection oven. 

Moving say from Chicago to Atlanta you'd get an increase in uncomfortably hot months and you wouldn't actually be able to throw away the scraper.  Obviously you'd use a scraper less in Atlanta than Chicago but the average daily low in Atlanta is only slightly above freezing in December and January so you probably wouldn't want to get rid of it entirely.  It DOES occasionally snow in Atlanta.  Worse, they get ice storms.  Worst still, they simply don't have the equipment and infrastructure to handle it the way that places like Chicago, Detroit, Cleveland, and Buffalo do so when it does snow it is a catastrophe.  Also, don't ever drive when it is snowy in the South, those people have only limited experience with it and they have no idea how to handle it. 
Nah. In Atlanta you don't need an ice scraper. If weather is coming in, you go to the grocery store and buy as much milk, bread, and eggs that you can, and then hunker down and don't leave the house until everything clears. 

As you say, you don't want to drive. Not only is it dangerous for anyone when it's like that, but you know--as a transplanted Northerner--that nobody else has a clue how to handle those conditions. 

Costal California is basically a "cheat code".  Both LA and SF have warmer winters than the Midwest, so warm in fact that you can "throw away the scraper" and they actually have cooler summers than Chicago so you basically have the best of both worlds.   
Yep. I just posted this in the weather thread, but it fits here too. 

And this is a dry heat too, so you don't get a "feels like" that's 10 degrees hotter due to humidity. 

Total cheat code.



medinabuckeye1

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #130 on: June 17, 2025, 02:52:08 PM »
When I get to those temps (110+) I feel like I can't even breathe. Just inhaling air that hot feels wrong.
That is right where I am, same as @NorthernOhioBuckeye said on the previous page.  If I'm forced to do anything outside at 80+ I'm not happy about it and 100, 110 ugh I don't even want to think about it.  
Even when there's a breeze, it just moves from being an oven to a convection oven.
This is so true.  I totally understand the "dry heat" thing that you mentioned later in the post and at 85 it makes a big difference.  I'll take high 80s and dry over high 70s and HUMID any day.  However, this has a limit.  When it gets much over 100 it is just plain hot and neither breeze nor lack of humidity can change that in any significant way.  
Nah. In Atlanta you don't need an ice scraper. If weather is coming in, you go to the grocery store and buy as much milk, bread, and eggs that you can, and then hunker down and don't leave the house until everything clears.
This is true, and hilarious to us Northerners.  A friend of mine was in Charleston and they were predicting snow the next day.  He went to see the USS Yorktown and it was closed due to weather.  Note that it wasn't going to snow THAT day.  When he got to the ship it was low 50s but the ship (and basically everything else in the area) was ALREADY closed because it was possibly going to snow the NEXT day.  I would imagine even for you after being transplanted to warm climates for many years that still sounds silly. 

MikeDeTiger

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #131 on: June 17, 2025, 03:07:26 PM »
They use the salt domes to store hydrocarbons, one is called Bryan Mound and it is part of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve created in the 1970's.  There are a couple more around.  They mine the salt (brine) out and store hydrocarbons there in vast quantities that you could not otherwise store in above-ground tanks.   

I leased salt dome land for hydrocarbon storage for a few months when the oil & gas business slowed considerably either in '08 or '09 and put a lot of landmen out of work.  I was fortunate to be contracted to a broker who juggled a lot of different small things instead of one large contract like a lot of them do.  I don't think I ever worked Brazoria County, though.  

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #132 on: June 17, 2025, 03:19:20 PM »
I'm still at a loss to explain Pennsylvania's decline at least relative to Ohio and Michigan.  I think that @betarhoalphadelta 's theory that major Cities like NYC and Chicago draw people from the entire region not just the state explains PA's decline relative to NY and IL but, as I see it, Philly and Pittsburg aren't substantially less of a draw than Detroit, Cleveland, Columbus, or Cincinnati. 

Here are some numbers to illustrate the change:  In the late-1800s and early 1900s Pennsylvania's population was around half-again Ohio's and around two-and-a-half times Michigan's.  The peak for PA relative to both OH and MI was in 1910 when PA's population was 161% of Ohio's and 273% of Michigan's.  Ninety years later in 2000 Pennsylvania's population was only about 8% more than OH's and 24% more than MI's.  It has recovered a little in the last two censuses but it is still only about 10% over Ohio's and 29% over Michigan's. 
Ok, I think I have at least a plausible explanation so I want to bounce it off the group and see what you think:

The key is to look at Michigan.  If you look at the chart back on the first page Michigan's population expanded pretty significantly relative to most of the others from about 1910-1980.  For much of that time, Ohio grew right along with them.  If you look particularly at the period from 1940-1980 Ohio's population went from about 51% of NY's to about 62% of NY's.  Michigan's population went from 39% of NY's to 53% of NY's.  If you just kinda eyeball the trend-lines for MI and OH from 1940-1980, had that continued they would both be more populous than IL and PA today.  

The relative growth of MI and OH gets lost on the chart because their growth spurt is dwarfed by the massive population growth at the same time and a little later for CA, TX, and FL but if you ignored those three the biggest thing of note would be the relative growth of MI and OH.  

I think it is the Auto-boom.  Michigan obviously had an enormous growth in employment in the auto-industry in that era and Ohio has a LOT of auto manufacturing as well.  

So NY and IL had major cities (NYC and Chicago) drawing in people from the entire region while MI and OH had massive growth in auto-industry jobs and PA had neither.  They were the #1 Oil producing state until Texas passed them in the 1920s and in the ~100 years since their population has dropped from being a fairly close #2 behind only NY to being about equal with IL and only slightly ahead of OH.  

Post-1980 the populations of OH and MI have drifted downward relative to NY right along with PA.  That makes sense, foreign cars got big due to the oil crisis in the 1970s so ever since the auto industry hasn't contributed to big growth for MI and OH.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #133 on: June 17, 2025, 03:37:45 PM »
I think that is fair, and why I mentioned that jobs could be another factor. I also think that the steel industry was prominent in PA, and that's been in decline much like the auto industry. So perhaps they didn't have the same level of growth MI and OH had over that period, but they still saw a decline due to a job exodus. 


Cincydawg

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #134 on: June 17, 2025, 03:42:40 PM »
If you park outdoors here in winter, you will need an ice scraper at times.  We get frost fairly often, snow not very often of course.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #135 on: June 17, 2025, 03:52:04 PM »
I think that is fair, and why I mentioned that jobs could be another factor. I also think that the steel industry was prominent in PA, and that's been in decline much like the auto industry. So perhaps they didn't have the same level of growth MI and OH had over that period, but they still saw a decline due to a job exodus.
That makes sense.  

It intrigues me because it is a pretty major difference.  From about 1880-1920 you could reasonably accurately describe the most populous states thusly:
  • NY is the biggest
  • PA is a fairly close second then a big gap
  • IL and OH are fairly close to each other well behind PA and well ahead of any others.  

Without ever looking at the chart everyone already knew that CA, TX, and FL grew a whole lot and I think we all understand why.  

That leaves the biggest change as PA dropping from a close second behind NY and WAY ahead of IL/OH to being WAY behind NY, near tied with IL and barely ahead of OH.  


Another thing that might be a factor although it came quite a few years before I started my chart is the Erie Canal.  Prior to that good coming from or destined for the Midwest had to be shipped overland from the East Coast.  Back then Philly and Baltimore were "coastal" in that oceangoing ships could get there but they were considerably further west than NYC and Boston because they were on the Delaware River and the Chesapeake Bay.  New York City grew very rapidly after the completion of the Erie Canal because NY became the "home port" for the entire Great Lakes region.  Some of that recalibration may still have been impacting things in the later 1800s, I don't know.  

Cincydawg

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #136 on: June 17, 2025, 04:12:41 PM »
US States - Ranking by Population 2025

North Carolina is growing pretty rapidly these days, faster than any large state except FL/TX.  I don't know there is a single large reason for it.

bayareabadger

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #137 on: June 17, 2025, 04:54:23 PM »
US States - Ranking by Population 2025

North Carolina is growing pretty rapidly these days, faster than any large state except FL/TX.  I don't know there is a single large reason for it.
Has a lot of agreeability factors.

Warm and southern, but without a lot of the Atlanta and Florida rigamarole. Plus a nice diverse set of places to land between major metro(-ish), college town ville with the triangle and a shitload of beach or mountain living for the wealthy retirees. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #138 on: June 17, 2025, 04:57:39 PM »
US States - Ranking by Population 2025

North Carolina is growing pretty rapidly these days, faster than any large state except FL/TX.  I don't know there is a single large reason for it.
I *THINK* most of the growth in NC is in the mountainous western part of the state.  Depending on location/elevation some of those areas have reasonably mild temperatures in both winter and summer.  

Those areas aren't nearly as mild (either way) as coastal California but, for a lot of people, Western NC has two major advantages vs costal California:
  • Cost of Living:  COL in NC is a LOT lower than California, particularly the really nice weather parts as referenced repeatedly in this thread by Brad, and
  • Distance to family:  I think that this has substantially limited the number of retirees in SoCal and particularly Arizona.  Charlotte is only 8 hours from Cleveland by car, 10 hours from Detroit, 12 hours from Chicago.  That is a long day or maybe a two day drive.  Phoenix is 27 hours from Chicago by car and obviously even farther from Detroit or Cleveland.  Most people aren't driving that.  If you have family back in the Midwest or Northeast that you plan to visit periodically it is a lot easier to do that from a retirement home in Charlotte (or Atlanta like you) than it is from Phoenix or LA.  


Wiki doesn't have the same climate chart for Charlotte that I used for Chicago, LA, SF, etc but they do say this:  "On average, there are 59 nights per year that drop to or below freezing, and only 1.5 days that fail to rise above freezing."  That is a lot milder than most of the Midwest.  I also *THINK* that their summers are either milder or not much worse than typical Midwest summers.  That isn't as mild as coastal California but if you can't afford to live in Malibu and want to visit grandkids in Cleveland/Detroit/Chicago but don't have unlimited funds for airfare, I could see Charlotte as a pretty attractive option.  

847badgerfan

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Re: Population trends random thoughts
« Reply #139 on: June 17, 2025, 05:01:11 PM »
Has a lot of agreeability factors.

Warm and southern, but without a lot of the Atlanta and Florida rigamarole. Plus a nice diverse set of places to land between major metro(-ish), college town ville with the triangle and a shitload of beach or mountain living for the wealthy retirees.
Which is?
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

 

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