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Topic: Poll: Have you had COVID

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847badgerfan

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #42 on: October 05, 2021, 09:22:02 AM »
Yeah, but with flu, just like with COVID, once it arrives in one person, it spreads on its own. Nobody except maybe New Zealand was truly locked down from travel.

The US had a flu season. The flu was here. Spread was attenuated by behavior.
I get all of that. But when you have (let's call it) 10 percent of the normal travel, that's gonna reduce the number of infected people coming in. That, and the aforementioned habits made it a non-factor. I still do not believe that masks really work, unless it's a properly and professionally fitted N95. 
U RAH RAH! WIS CON SIN!

FearlessF

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #43 on: October 05, 2021, 09:23:45 AM »
I get all of that. But when you have (let's call it) 10 percent of the normal travel, that's gonna reduce the number of infected people coming in. That, and the aforementioned habits made it a non-factor. I still do not believe that masks really work, unless it's a properly and professionally fitted N95.
also my belief 
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #44 on: October 05, 2021, 10:15:48 AM »
I get all of that. But when you have (let's call it) 10 percent of the normal travel, that's gonna reduce the number of infected people coming in. That, and the aforementioned habits made it a non-factor. I still do not believe that masks really work, unless it's a properly and professionally fitted N95.
Define "work"? 

The idea is that masks reduce the spread, not that they're a 100% effective barrier against infection.

Did you see this post from CD?

Yup, new virus with unusual features, most of which unknown and unanticipated earlier.  An early fear was it could be spread by touch from surfaces, now largely discounted.

And yet folks continue to be extra vigilant cleaning surfaces, probably for no reason on COVID.

Science-on-Mask-Use-in-K-12-Schools_8.20.21_FINAL.pdf (scdhec.gov)

Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)

The face mask controversy continues of course, but newer data does show some efficacy from what I've seen. 

Then we have the various and sundry "treatments" off label which get popularity at times from dubious sources.

If the goal is to reduce R0 across a population, and thus limit the number of cases and the spread, I think the data supports the conclusion that masks work. 


utee94

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #45 on: October 05, 2021, 10:23:34 AM »
When it comes to the cloth masks and surgical masks (as opposed to N95 and other small-particle-filtration masks), I think it's difficult to separate in the data, how much of an effect the mask itself has, versus the behaviors like distancing and general crowd avoidance, that go along with mask-wearing.

Also in skimming just the first link above, it doesn't mention the level of community spread outside of the school, with respect to incidence of transmission within the school.

What I'm seeing in Austin over the past 12 months now, is that when community spread is high, then cases within schools is high.  And when it is low, then cases within schools is low.  Regardless of mask-wearing.


847badgerfan

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #46 on: October 05, 2021, 10:26:48 AM »
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2021, 11:07:06 AM »
It says the surgical mask protects the patient from the wearer's respiratory emissions. It may not 100% protect the wearer from anything they may encounter, but the idea is to try to limit emissions so that others are protected by non-exposure.

FearlessF

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2021, 10:28:36 PM »
leakage also occurs when the user exhales
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Cincydawg

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2021, 12:02:16 PM »
Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS

Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)


Humans seem most comfortable with binary data, it either works, or it doesn't.  The idea it could be partially effective is resisted.


MrNubbz

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #50 on: October 06, 2021, 12:18:36 PM »
It was a roommate’s parrot.
I have 2 parrots,He should have been caned
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

utee94

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #51 on: October 06, 2021, 12:28:35 PM »
Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS

Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)


Humans seem most comfortable with binary data, it either works, or it doesn't.  The idea it could be partially effective is resisted.



That's possibly true.

But also, when presented with a solution that is only partially effective, it then requires the consideration of other factors, including tradeoffs.

In other words, is the efficacy of the mask (under real-world conditions rather than lab conditions) viable enough, that it offsets the negative factors?  Additionally, are there solutions that are SIGNIFICANTLY more effective that can be employed-- like a vaccine-- that render any incremental protection from mask-wearing to be statistically insignificant?


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2021, 01:12:51 PM »
Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS

Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com)


Humans seem most comfortable with binary data, it either works, or it doesn't.  The idea it could be partially effective is resisted.


Thanks for that first link. I had not seen any studies previously that actually showed that natural infection was superior.

I do think the point is important that we should not be encouraging people to acquire the virus naturally in order to get this protection--but for those who have confirmed cases, it is good information. 

It's also highlighted in that study that natural infection PLUS vaccination is superior to either. Which is important.

That's possibly true.

But also, when presented with a solution that is only partially effective, it then requires the consideration of other factors, including tradeoffs.

In other words, is the efficacy of the mask (under real-world conditions rather than lab conditions) viable enough, that it offsets the negative factors?  Additionally, are there solutions that are SIGNIFICANTLY more effective that can be employed-- like a vaccine-- that render any incremental protection from mask-wearing to be statistically insignificant?
Well, I haven't seen any actual data on negative factors of mask-wearing, beyond cases of maskne (mask acne). I know some people think they're going to pass out because of too much CO2, which is BS. And others think that children will be emotionally stunted for life by wearing a mask a couple hours a day. But neither of those have, to my knowledge, been supported by actual data. 

So the balancing test of mask-wearing, i.e. benefit vs cost, is balancing something with some unknown benefit vs basically zero cost. 

That said, the balancing test of a mask mandate is different, because there is a personal liberty. It's hard to quantify the personal liberty cost of being forced to wear a mask, but I think that cost is much larger than any other "negative factors" to social, emotional, or physical well-being. 

So having widespread [and free at the point of distribution] vaccine availability, IMHO, flips that cost/benefit calculation such that mask mandates are no longer justifiable. Those who desire the protection of the vaccine can have it and don't need to wear a mask, and those who don't desire the protection of the vaccine nor to wear a mask are implicitly accepting the consequences of that decision. 

utee94

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2021, 01:45:07 PM »
Thanks for that first link. I had not seen any studies previously that actually showed that natural infection was superior.

I do think the point is important that we should not be encouraging people to acquire the virus naturally in order to get this protection--but for those who have confirmed cases, it is good information.

It's also highlighted in that study that natural infection PLUS vaccination is superior to either. Which is important.
Well, I haven't seen any actual data on negative factors of mask-wearing, beyond cases of maskne (mask acne). I know some people think they're going to pass out because of too much CO2, which is BS. And others think that children will be emotionally stunted for life by wearing a mask a couple hours a day. But neither of those have, to my knowledge, been supported by actual data.

So the balancing test of mask-wearing, i.e. benefit vs cost, is balancing something with some unknown benefit vs basically zero cost.

That said, the balancing test of a mask mandate is different, because there is a personal liberty. It's hard to quantify the personal liberty cost of being forced to wear a mask, but I think that cost is much larger than any other "negative factors" to social, emotional, or physical well-being.

So having widespread [and free at the point of distribution] vaccine availability, IMHO, flips that cost/benefit calculation such that mask mandates are no longer justifiable. Those who desire the protection of the vaccine can have it and don't need to wear a mask, and those who don't desire the protection of the vaccine nor to wear a mask are implicitly accepting the consequences of that decision.

We're saying mostly the same thing here, but I won't allow the negative factors of mask-wearing to be dismissed so quickly by you or anyone else.

The negative factor for a mask could simply be that it's uncomfortable.  And that alone is enough to justify my case against it. I don't like walking around with a pebble in my shoe either, but I'm allowed to remove it.

I DO consider comfort a part of my right to the pursuit of happiness.  Before the vaccine was available, I allowed the government to infringe on that right, for the greater common good.  But now I am vaccinated, which renders the mask-wearing statistically useless, and I expect the suspension of my rights, to cease.

So yes, the mandate is the key in light of the presence of vaccines.  I'm not at all okay with being required to wear a mask, now that I am vaccinated, when the data indicates that the incremental protection of wearing a mask ABOVE the protection of the vaccine, is statistically insignificant.

But beyond that, I do believe that the simple discomfort of the mask IS a legitimate negative factor to be considered in weighing the tradeoffs.  Was my discomfort worth the benefit to society of my wearing it? In a pre-vaccine world, yes.  Now?  Nope.


« Last Edit: October 06, 2021, 01:54:56 PM by utee94 »

847badgerfan

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2021, 02:11:44 PM »
The deal with masks and comfort... Yes, it sucks to wear a mask. I have my own story.

On one trip back up North, in April, after I was vaxed, I had to connect in Charlotte as all of the non-stops were taken (late arrangement for trip).

Arrival at the RSW airport at 6AM. Mask on. Arrival at Charlotte. Mask still on. Take mask off to eat lunch. Mask back on.

Arrival at ORD. Mask still on. Take rental car - mask finally off.

7.5 hours with a mask (0.5 hour to eat) and I was coughing and hacking for days after (not covid). Being able to not breathe is a real thing, despite what some say. I don't know how people do it every day, honestly.
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betarhoalphadelta

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Re: Poll: Have you had COVID
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2021, 02:33:47 PM »
But beyond that, I do believe that the simple discomfort of the mask IS a legitimate negative factor to be considered in weighing the tradeoffs.  Was my discomfort worth the benefit to society of my wearing it? In a pre-vaccine world, yes.  Now?  Nope.
Agreed. Discomfort is a legitimate negative factor. However, as one side of a balancing test, it's weak sauce compared to legitimate negative social / emotional / physical well-being effects. 

I.e., I don't care if the surgeon operating on me finds a mask uncomfortable--he/she better effing wear one. 

I think in a pre-vaccine world, there is a justification that the benefits of masks override the discomfort cost. In a post-vaccine world, I think it flips the other way. 


 

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