CFB51 College Football Fan Community
The Power Five => Big Ten => Topic started by: Gigem on August 25, 2021, 03:17:26 PM
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I think the poll is pretty explanatory.
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I put maybe because there were no tests available here when I got it in late January, 2020. My doctor has no doubts that I had it, it darn near killed me and my wife.
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I put no.
Obviously I probably should put "I don't think so but I doubt it", because I did not have several negative antibody tests prior to the vaccine to confirm I didn't have it...
But given that my wife was going to the office today, that I was shuttling kids back and forth to their mom's house, and given that literally nobody in my orbit incl wife's parents, kids' grandparents on mom's side, etc ever showed symptoms (and I don't know how we could have avoided spread) I feel pretty comfortable that I did not ever have it. SOMEONE would have shown up with symptoms somewhere, and nobody did.
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I put I doubt it. I did have an unusual and unexplainable cough for about 6 months starting in March 2020. And I mean, I NEVER get a cough. I never get sick at all. So this was very unusual and it lasted forever.
But I also tested negative for antibodies in June 2020. So it's likely I didn't have it, but I can't say for sure.
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Yes, and verified.
I will say this.. I had it in early March of 2020 and had antibodies in May. No antibodies by July, but that is no matter. It's the B and T cells that matter. They learn and they attack.
What don't know is if they forget, or remain forever.
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Nope. I've been tested 4 times and have never had it. 3 times pre-vaccine, and once last week when I had a cold.
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I have given blood 4-5 times since jan 2020 and they tested and said no
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I think my answer would be I don’t know, and I’m not sure. I certainly could’ve been asymptomatic. I’ve done a fair amount of traveling. And I’m baseline kind of sick most of the time. But it turns out if you don’t get enough sleep and spend a lot of time being stressed, that can also be a symptom.
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I've been around numerous people that had it were symptomatic, but never showed any symptoms . . . until Tuesday. I had a high fever and plenty of aches and pains. I took yesterday off and pretty much stayed in bed. Last night my fever broke and I feel much better today, although I am still very tired and a little achy. I will try to get through work today (I work at home).
I should probably go get a Covid test, but not sure that I will. I have no plans of leaving the house for the next few days and will most likely stick to that.
All of that to say that I voted Maybe, but never got tested.
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I had something in France late Jan. 2020, but the symptoms were not that of COVID, more like bronchitis. I stayed in bed 3 days with a lot of facial tissue.
Nobody else got it.
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I've been around numerous people that had it were symptomatic, but never showed any symptoms . . . until Tuesday. I had a high fever and plenty of aches and pains. I took yesterday off and pretty much stayed in bed. Last night my fever broke and I feel much better today, although I am still very tired and a little achy. I will try to get through work today (I work at home).
I should probably go get a Covid test, but not sure that I will. I have no plans of leaving the house for the next few days and will most likely stick to that.
All of that to say that I voted Maybe, but never got tested.
Please get tested, so you know your status.
Are you vaccinated? Don't answer if that's too personal. No worries.
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I had something in France late Jan. 2020, but the symptoms were not that of COVID, more like bronchitis. I stayed in bed 3 days with a lot of facial tissue.
Nobody else got it.
That is very much a symptom. It's not bronchitis though. That's what I thought at first.
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I don't think my symptoms overlapped with what I've read about COVID, and what my kid in Texas had.
I just had a cough and tons of mucus. I didn't feel all that bad otherwise, no fever, no loss of smell, just like a bad cold. I was taking 2-3 showers to try and clear my nose.
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Everyone is different. I never lost taste/smell, for example. Most people don't. But, it's a symptom.
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I put maybe only because I didn't get tested. My wife tested positive and I had the exact same symptoms, two days delayed behind her.
Mine was basically a sinus infection. Nagging cough lingered for six weeks. Lost a majority of my sense of smell, but not taste, for about 10 weeks.
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I had some flu like symptoms for a couple of days, about a week after everything was getting cancelled. So that was probably it, but they weren't testing so I don't know. It was pretty tame compared to other flus that I've had.
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I had it last December. My son and wife came down with it and got tested, since their jobs required it. I didn't get tested since we could be pretty sure I had it, too. Felt similar to having the flu, until I got an atrial fibrillation and ended up spending Christmas Eve and Christmas morning in the hospital. Obviously, I got tested there.
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I had atrial flutter, which was awful. I got cured which was wonderful. (Catheter abalation)
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I tested +. I was a bit frightened. I sent office staff home. I worked. As I was quarantining, somedays I slept in on the sofa, fearful that if I stood up, I would have a headache and feel sick. I had no symptoms, other than fear.
One of our former neighbors was 90-years old in the rest home got it. The rest home had an outbreak with lots of death. We visited her through the window when we found out she had it. She had no symptoms. It was dusk when we stopped. Someone nearby had the curtains open who was obviously struggling.
Don't take chances.
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My son clearly had it March/April 2020. I'm pretty sure I never had it. Had a bad cold Jan 2020.
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Please get tested, so you know your status.
Are you vaccinated? Don't answer if that's too personal. No worries.
I did end up going and getting tested and the results were positive for a Covid infection. I ended up missing about a week of work. Never really got terribly sick, just achy and slept a lot. My wife also tested positive a couple of days later, so we just stayed at home for 2 weeks and avoided contact with everyone. A few people came by and dropped off some meals for us which was greatly appreciated. We made out a grocery list and our daughter went to the store for us a couple of times so that we didn't starve to death (although with me that would take some time).
Now that both of us have recovered there is no need to get the vaccine so we are both moving on without it.
Yes Covid was a bit rough, but I've literally had a much worse experience with the flu. But wife and I am also under 60, relatively healthy with the only underlying medical condition is that I have slightly diminished kidney function. So for us, it was more of an inconvenience than anything.
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Everyone is different. I never lost taste/smell, for example. Most people don't. But, it's a symptom.
I've lost my sense of smell, but it kind of comes and goes. My youngest daughter came home one day last week with her new kitten. After she left I went up to her old room and could smell cat urine. The damn thing pissed in a laundry basket with a couple of old blankets in it, just a foot from the litter box that my daughter had brought with her. She has been advised to not bring that damn cat home again.
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Cat urine is hard to miss. My sense of smell is attenuated by my previous profession.
The wife smells things frequently I don't, often it's me.
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Still haven't had a positive test, although I had a flu of some sort in early Sep. I tested negative, but I've anecdotally heard of ppl testing negative multiple times before testing positive with the same illness. I would guess you may be more likely to get a false negative if you are vaccinated.
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I've lost my sense of smell, but it kind of comes and goes. My youngest daughter came home one day last week with her new kitten. After she left I went up to her old room and could smell cat urine. The damn thing pissed in a laundry basket with a couple of old blankets in it, just a foot from the litter box that my daughter had brought with her. She has been advised to not bring that damn cat home again.
On the plus side, it was on something that was about to be washed anyway?
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Cat's are why these were made:
(https://i.imgur.com/c8i3s1C.jpg)
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Cat's are why these were made:
(https://i.imgur.com/c8i3s1C.jpg)
I didn't know you were Barry's kid.
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Did he really?
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I had a RadarRange just after college
was a hand me down from my grandparents
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Did he really?
It was a roommate’s parrot.
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How many other common viral diseases have such a range of symptoms, including none?
Do we ever get the flu and not notice? Maybe. Does it ever hit us with mild symptoms? THe times I've had flu I was pretty sick.
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https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/03/17/290878964/even-if-you-dont-have-symptoms-you-may-still-have-the-flu
But just because you don't exhibit these symptoms, it doesn't mean you don't have the flu, researchers say. And you could be just as contagious. In fact, their study found that roughly three-quarters of people with seasonal or pandemic flu show either no symptoms or mild ones that aren't usually linked to flu.
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Weird, I did not know that.
The study tracked nearly 5,500 people across England over six flu seasons between 2006 and 2011, including the 2009 H1N1, or swine flu, pandemic. Researchers drew blood samples before and after each season from each participant to check for signs of the infection.
They then contacted each household every week to check for cough, cold, sore throat or flu-like illnesses. Those who reported these symptoms then submitted nasal swabs to test for influenza and other respiratory illnesses.
Roughly 1 in 5 unvaccinated people was infected with the flu virus each winter, the study found, but only a quarter of those people showed any symptoms of the infection. And only 17 percent of those infected were sick enough to see a doctor.
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For most people, you wouldn't. If I think I have the flu, I don't go to the doctor, I just stay home and let it run it's course.
But I haven't had it for years (that I know of), and I get the flu shot every year. I probably haven't had it since Tamiflu became available.
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I didn't know it either, didn't even think about it. Learning a lot about illness these days.
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That's a lot of folks with flu walking around. No wonder it can spread "virally". Last year was ultra low, a thing which is interesting.
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ultra low as was reported
perhaps just as many had the flu but didn't seek help from the doctor and therefore weren't reported
I've had the flu around a dozen times, but never told anyone that I was certain I had the flu nor did I go to the Doc.
When I was young, my mother may have consulted with or drug me to the doctor
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Travel to/from China was shut down. That had to help with the flu numbers.
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Travel to/from China was shut down. That had to help with the flu numbers.
Eh. Flu is endemic, so I don't think travel to our from any specific country makes a difference.
Everything was altered (masks, distancing, school, work from home, etc), which I figure is at least an order of magnitude, maybe two, stronger of an explanation than shutting down travel to and from China.
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I think it did. Most flus come from there, SE Asia or Africa.
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Everyone was also wearing face masks last winter.
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I think it did. Most flus come from there, SE Asia or Africa.
Yeah, but with flu, just like with COVID, once it arrives in one person, it spreads on its own. Nobody except maybe New Zealand was truly locked down from travel.
The US had a flu season. The flu was here. Spread was attenuated by behavior.
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Yeah, but with flu, just like with COVID, once it arrives in one person, it spreads on its own. Nobody except maybe New Zealand was truly locked down from travel.
The US had a flu season. The flu was here. Spread was attenuated by behavior.
I get all of that. But when you have (let's call it) 10 percent of the normal travel, that's gonna reduce the number of infected people coming in. That, and the aforementioned habits made it a non-factor. I still do not believe that masks really work, unless it's a properly and professionally fitted N95.
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I get all of that. But when you have (let's call it) 10 percent of the normal travel, that's gonna reduce the number of infected people coming in. That, and the aforementioned habits made it a non-factor. I still do not believe that masks really work, unless it's a properly and professionally fitted N95.
also my belief
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I get all of that. But when you have (let's call it) 10 percent of the normal travel, that's gonna reduce the number of infected people coming in. That, and the aforementioned habits made it a non-factor. I still do not believe that masks really work, unless it's a properly and professionally fitted N95.
Define "work"?
The idea is that masks reduce the spread, not that they're a 100% effective barrier against infection.
Did you see this post from CD?
Yup, new virus with unusual features, most of which unknown and unanticipated earlier. An early fear was it could be spread by touch from surfaces, now largely discounted.
And yet folks continue to be extra vigilant cleaning surfaces, probably for no reason on COVID.
Science-on-Mask-Use-in-K-12-Schools_8.20.21_FINAL.pdf (scdhec.gov) (https://scdhec.gov/sites/default/files/media/document/Science-on-Mask-Use-in-K-12-Schools_8.20.21_FINAL.pdf)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com) (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/27/face-masks)
The face mask controversy continues of course, but newer data does show some efficacy from what I've seen.
Then we have the various and sundry "treatments" off label which get popularity at times from dubious sources.
If the goal is to reduce R0 across a population, and thus limit the number of cases and the spread, I think the data supports the conclusion that masks work.
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When it comes to the cloth masks and surgical masks (as opposed to N95 and other small-particle-filtration masks), I think it's difficult to separate in the data, how much of an effect the mask itself has, versus the behaviors like distancing and general crowd avoidance, that go along with mask-wearing.
Also in skimming just the first link above, it doesn't mention the level of community spread outside of the school, with respect to incidence of transmission within the school.
What I'm seeing in Austin over the past 12 months now, is that when community spread is high, then cases within schools is high. And when it is low, then cases within schools is low. Regardless of mask-wearing.
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(https://i.imgur.com/jOMxZpx.png)
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It says the surgical mask protects the patient from the wearer's respiratory emissions. It may not 100% protect the wearer from anything they may encounter, but the idea is to try to limit emissions so that others are protected by non-exposure.
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leakage also occurs when the user exhales
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Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS (https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital?fbclid=IwAR0b_sEQfxKM4aoTBMBFBmHQLwQrLgFnI26EzoRBdCcpQjHOEZo_PbZCgtw)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com) (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/27/face-masks?fbclid=IwAR19_vp0nZTSfWYDfIXqPaqk9rWld92o1Bn1pDU5_aColF2WR3XPUVVOCeA)
Humans seem most comfortable with binary data, it either works, or it doesn't. The idea it could be partially effective is resisted.
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It was a roommate’s parrot.
I have 2 parrots,He should have been caned
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Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS (https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital?fbclid=IwAR0b_sEQfxKM4aoTBMBFBmHQLwQrLgFnI26EzoRBdCcpQjHOEZo_PbZCgtw)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com) (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/27/face-masks?fbclid=IwAR19_vp0nZTSfWYDfIXqPaqk9rWld92o1Bn1pDU5_aColF2WR3XPUVVOCeA)
Humans seem most comfortable with binary data, it either works, or it doesn't. The idea it could be partially effective is resisted.
That's possibly true.
But also, when presented with a solution that is only partially effective, it then requires the consideration of other factors, including tradeoffs.
In other words, is the efficacy of the mask (under real-world conditions rather than lab conditions) viable enough, that it offsets the negative factors? Additionally, are there solutions that are SIGNIFICANTLY more effective that can be employed-- like a vaccine-- that render any incremental protection from mask-wearing to be statistically insignificant?
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Having SARS-CoV-2 once confers much greater immunity than a vaccine—but vaccination remains vital | Science | AAAS (https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-once-confers-much-greater-immunity-vaccine-vaccination-remains-vital?fbclid=IwAR0b_sEQfxKM4aoTBMBFBmHQLwQrLgFnI26EzoRBdCcpQjHOEZo_PbZCgtw)
Just how effective is mask-wearing? Here's what 3 new studies found. (advisory.com) (https://www.advisory.com/daily-briefing/2021/09/27/face-masks?fbclid=IwAR19_vp0nZTSfWYDfIXqPaqk9rWld92o1Bn1pDU5_aColF2WR3XPUVVOCeA)
Humans seem most comfortable with binary data, it either works, or it doesn't. The idea it could be partially effective is resisted.
Thanks for that first link. I had not seen any studies previously that actually showed that natural infection was superior.
I do think the point is important that we should not be encouraging people to acquire the virus naturally in order to get this protection--but for those who have confirmed cases, it is good information.
It's also highlighted in that study that natural infection PLUS vaccination is superior to either. Which is important.
That's possibly true.
But also, when presented with a solution that is only partially effective, it then requires the consideration of other factors, including tradeoffs.
In other words, is the efficacy of the mask (under real-world conditions rather than lab conditions) viable enough, that it offsets the negative factors? Additionally, are there solutions that are SIGNIFICANTLY more effective that can be employed-- like a vaccine-- that render any incremental protection from mask-wearing to be statistically insignificant?
Well, I haven't seen any actual data on negative factors of mask-wearing, beyond cases of maskne (mask acne). I know some people think they're going to pass out because of too much CO2, which is BS. And others think that children will be emotionally stunted for life by wearing a mask a couple hours a day. But neither of those have, to my knowledge, been supported by actual data.
So the balancing test of mask-wearing, i.e. benefit vs cost, is balancing something with some unknown benefit vs basically zero cost.
That said, the balancing test of a mask mandate is different, because there is a personal liberty. It's hard to quantify the personal liberty cost of being forced to wear a mask, but I think that cost is much larger than any other "negative factors" to social, emotional, or physical well-being.
So having widespread [and free at the point of distribution] vaccine availability, IMHO, flips that cost/benefit calculation such that mask mandates are no longer justifiable. Those who desire the protection of the vaccine can have it and don't need to wear a mask, and those who don't desire the protection of the vaccine nor to wear a mask are implicitly accepting the consequences of that decision.
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Thanks for that first link. I had not seen any studies previously that actually showed that natural infection was superior.
I do think the point is important that we should not be encouraging people to acquire the virus naturally in order to get this protection--but for those who have confirmed cases, it is good information.
It's also highlighted in that study that natural infection PLUS vaccination is superior to either. Which is important.
Well, I haven't seen any actual data on negative factors of mask-wearing, beyond cases of maskne (mask acne). I know some people think they're going to pass out because of too much CO2, which is BS. And others think that children will be emotionally stunted for life by wearing a mask a couple hours a day. But neither of those have, to my knowledge, been supported by actual data.
So the balancing test of mask-wearing, i.e. benefit vs cost, is balancing something with some unknown benefit vs basically zero cost.
That said, the balancing test of a mask mandate is different, because there is a personal liberty. It's hard to quantify the personal liberty cost of being forced to wear a mask, but I think that cost is much larger than any other "negative factors" to social, emotional, or physical well-being.
So having widespread [and free at the point of distribution] vaccine availability, IMHO, flips that cost/benefit calculation such that mask mandates are no longer justifiable. Those who desire the protection of the vaccine can have it and don't need to wear a mask, and those who don't desire the protection of the vaccine nor to wear a mask are implicitly accepting the consequences of that decision.
We're saying mostly the same thing here, but I won't allow the negative factors of mask-wearing to be dismissed so quickly by you or anyone else.
The negative factor for a mask could simply be that it's uncomfortable. And that alone is enough to justify my case against it. I don't like walking around with a pebble in my shoe either, but I'm allowed to remove it.
I DO consider comfort a part of my right to the pursuit of happiness. Before the vaccine was available, I allowed the government to infringe on that right, for the greater common good. But now I am vaccinated, which renders the mask-wearing statistically useless, and I expect the suspension of my rights, to cease.
So yes, the mandate is the key in light of the presence of vaccines. I'm not at all okay with being required to wear a mask, now that I am vaccinated, when the data indicates that the incremental protection of wearing a mask ABOVE the protection of the vaccine, is statistically insignificant.
But beyond that, I do believe that the simple discomfort of the mask IS a legitimate negative factor to be considered in weighing the tradeoffs. Was my discomfort worth the benefit to society of my wearing it? In a pre-vaccine world, yes. Now? Nope.
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The deal with masks and comfort... Yes, it sucks to wear a mask. I have my own story.
On one trip back up North, in April, after I was vaxed, I had to connect in Charlotte as all of the non-stops were taken (late arrangement for trip).
Arrival at the RSW airport at 6AM. Mask on. Arrival at Charlotte. Mask still on. Take mask off to eat lunch. Mask back on.
Arrival at ORD. Mask still on. Take rental car - mask finally off.
7.5 hours with a mask (0.5 hour to eat) and I was coughing and hacking for days after (not covid). Being able to not breathe is a real thing, despite what some say. I don't know how people do it every day, honestly.
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But beyond that, I do believe that the simple discomfort of the mask IS a legitimate negative factor to be considered in weighing the tradeoffs. Was my discomfort worth the benefit to society of my wearing it? In a pre-vaccine world, yes. Now? Nope.
Agreed. Discomfort is a legitimate negative factor. However, as one side of a balancing test, it's weak sauce compared to legitimate negative social / emotional / physical well-being effects.
I.e., I don't care if the surgeon operating on me finds a mask uncomfortable--he/she better effing wear one.
I think in a pre-vaccine world, there is a justification that the benefits of masks override the discomfort cost. In a post-vaccine world, I think it flips the other way.
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Agreed. Discomfort is a legitimate negative factor. However, as one side of a balancing test, it's weak sauce compared to legitimate negative social / emotional / physical well-being effects.
I.e., I don't care if the surgeon operating on me finds a mask uncomfortable--he/she better effing wear one.
I think in a pre-vaccine world, there is a justification that the benefits of masks override the discomfort cost. In a post-vaccine world, I think it flips the other way.
word.
I realize I'm picking nits, I'm just tired of people offhand dismissing comfort/happiness as a relevant factor, and acting like anyone who brings it up, wants to murder old people. I mean, it was considered important enough to be enumerated specifically by the founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence, as one of our inalienable rights.
And the problem I'm seeing is that even today, there are a lot of people out there that believe requiring masks for vaccinated people is acceptable. It's really not. I understand there's an enforcement issue but:
1) That's not really my problem and
2) The unvaccinated have only themselves to blame at this point.
Free My Face, dammit!!!
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Double WORD.
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Yep. It was one of the reasons I phrased things a certain way earlier...
In a benefit/cost analysis of the personal choice to wear a mask, it's true that there is basically (IMHO) no downside to a mask, if you're looking only at social / emotional / physical well-being...
...yet I don't wear one except when required. When I have the personal choice not to wear a mask, I do not wear one.
The reason for that is purely comfort. I don't like wearing it. It fogs my glasses. It's annoying.
I'm taking a larger risk with my own health by doing so. I have more potential to be an asymptomatic carrier and pass it to someone else by not wearing a mask. But I am making the choice for my own health and I'm comfortable with my choice, and someone who I'm around who isn't vaccinated is clearly comfortable with theirs.
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I used to see Asians wearing masks at the airport and thought it over the top.
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Guess they didn't want you to spit in their mouths.
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Well, I had read that mask wearing was a common practice in most of Asia at least in flu season, and I have read some studies that suggest it helps. They seem able to do it as custom and without ill effect, nearly as I can tell. Maybe they are too germophobic, I don't know.
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Messaging.
(https://i.imgur.com/HHGBs8m.png)
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I DO consider comfort a part of my right to the pursuit of happiness. Before the vaccine was available, I allowed the government to infringe on that right, for the greater common good. But now I am vaccinated, which renders the mask-wearing statistically useless, and I expect the suspension of my rights, to cease.
So yes, the mandate is the key in light of the presence of vaccines. I'm not at all okay with being required to wear a mask, now that I am vaccinated, when the data indicates that the incremental protection of wearing a mask ABOVE the protection of the vaccine, is statistically insignificant.
But beyond that, I do believe that the simple discomfort of the mask IS a legitimate negative factor to be considered in weighing the tradeoffs. Was my discomfort worth the benefit to society of my wearing it? In a pre-vaccine world, yes. Now? Nope.
On the one hand, I buy the argument that discomfort is something that should be considered more than it is. On another, I find that first sentence a bit overdramatic (and to a degree, some people's discussion of their own discomfort to also be overdramatic).
We live in a country where a person can be arrested for not wearing cloth over a certain part of their body in a variety of situations. No doubt some people see this as an impediment to their right to happiness, but we've decided the comfort of not seeing the human form matters more. We have all sorts of arbitrary things we make people do.
Shoot, the term next to "pursuit of happiness" is "liberty" and we as a people are by and large ridiculously flippant about that (not to mention the founders, who likewise had flexible outlooks there). And really flippant about the parts codified in actual law, not just rhetoric.
This isn't to say that your or my physical comfort shouldn't be considered, nor should questions of efficacy and weighing it all alongside the ability of the currently unvaccinatable (a group whose size I don't know) to participate in society. Shoot, I liked it a bit more in my last state where mask restrictions were a bit lighter. But this drama that builds around it is ... kinda a bit much (it's also a lot much on the other side, lord do I know that).
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Well, I had read that mask wearing was a common practice in most of Asia at least in flu season, and I have read some studies that suggest it helps. They seem able to do it as custom and without ill effect, nearly as I can tell. Maybe they are too germophobic, I don't know.
there ya go
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Yep. It was one of the reasons I phrased things a certain way earlier...
In a benefit/cost analysis of the personal choice to wear a mask, it's true that there is basically (IMHO) no downside to a mask, if you're looking only at social / emotional / physical well-being...
...yet I don't wear one except when required. When I have the personal choice not to wear a mask, I do not wear one.
The reason for that is purely comfort. I don't like wearing it. It fogs my glasses. It's annoying.
I'm taking a larger risk with my own health by doing so. I have more potential to be an asymptomatic carrier and pass it to someone else by not wearing a mask. But I am making the choice for my own health and I'm comfortable with my choice, and someone who I'm around who isn't vaccinated is clearly comfortable with theirs.
i appreciate choice. but i'll disagree with this statement. you really aren't putting yourself at anymore risk by not wearing a mask. at least not an appreciable one, from my understanding. the whole point of wearing a mask, as alluded to in the next sentence, is to protect others from you. not you from others. and the reason masks aren't working nearly effective enough is because not near enough people understand this concept. or just don't buy into it. or don't care enough about their neighbors to be slightly inconvenienced.
it goes back to the ol' pissing example. if you walk around without pants pissing all over, others are gonna get wet whether they have pants on or not. but if you wear pants, it's extremely unlike anyone but you will get wet.
so you aren't taking a larger risk with your own health by not wearing a mask. you're taking a larger risk with the health of those people around you.
likewise with vaccines, though that is much more in line with your original statement of risking your own health. not sure why, but it used to be the anti-vax people were the crazy hippie loonies. not sure when or why that changed.
not necessarily directed at you, βραδ, you just happened to make that statement.
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Social media has enabled cranks and conspiracists to spread their "gospel" readily when before it would be isolated to individuals and smaller groups and the susceptible wouldn't hear the notions.
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so you aren't taking a larger risk with your own health by not wearing a mask. you're taking a larger risk with the health of those people around you.
Well, I simply assume that the mask has some non-zero benefit to me personally. I don't have any quantification of that--maybe it's only 5% reduction in the likelihood that in a given scenario I'll contract COVID, or perhaps that it won't stop me from contracting COVID but it might reduce viral load such that I have a less severe case, etc.
But otherwise, I do agree. What I think we know so far is that masks reduce R0 of COVID, and we believe that the reduction is more related to catching someone's outgoing breath and reducing emissions of the virus than stopping the virus on the incoming breath.
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I think the masks would be more effective if people wore them correctly. The percentage of people wearing them without covering their nose is astounding.
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On the one hand, I buy the argument that discomfort is something that should be considered more than it is. On another, I find that first sentence a bit overdramatic (and to a degree, some people's discussion of their own discomfort to also be overdramatic).
We live in a country where a person can be arrested for not wearing cloth over a certain part of their body in a variety of situations. No doubt some people see this as an impediment to their right to happiness, but we've decided the comfort of not seeing the human form matters more. We have all sorts of arbitrary things we make people do.
Shoot, the term next to "pursuit of happiness" is "liberty" and we as a people are by and large ridiculously flippant about that (not to mention the founders, who likewise had flexible outlooks there). And really flippant about the parts codified in actual law, not just rhetoric.
This isn't to say that your or my physical comfort shouldn't be considered, nor should questions of efficacy and weighing it all alongside the ability of the currently unvaccinatable (a group whose size I don't know) to participate in society. Shoot, I liked it a bit more in my last state where mask restrictions were a bit lighter. But this drama that builds around it is ... kinda a bit much (it's also a lot much on the other side, lord do I know that).
There's no drama coming from me. I do see lots of people freaking out here, and elsewhere, when I say what I feel about it all. I view the drama as being entirely on their side. *shrug*
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word.
I realize I'm picking nits, I'm just tired of people offhand dismissing comfort/happiness as a relevant factor, and acting like anyone who brings it up, wants to murder old people. I mean, it was considered important enough to be enumerated specifically by the founding fathers in the Declaration of Independence, as one of our inalienable rights.
And the problem I'm seeing is that even today, there are a lot of people out there that believe requiring masks for vaccinated people is acceptable. It's really not. I understand there's an enforcement issue but:
1) That's not really my problem and
2) The unvaccinated have only themselves to blame at this point.
Free My Face, dammit!!!
You're right, no one SHOULD be forced to wear a mask.
But what do you do when a bulk of your populace is ignorant?
We made this seat belt here. For your safety. All you have to do is put it on. It works really well.
Nah, it's uncomfortable.
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ALRIGHT, WTF PEOPLE?!! DON'T YOU WANT TO STAY ALIVE?!?! THAT'S IT, IT'S LAW NOW!!!! THERE, YOU'RE WELCOME!!!
Same-same, no?
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I missed the poll, but it's awesome that there's a "no" option for a virus that's 75% asymptomatic. LOL
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I missed the poll, but it's awesome that there's a "no" option for a virus that's 75% asymptomatic. LOL
Testing can detect the antibodies that the virus itself produces, so I'd assume anyone that answered "no" had been recently tested and showed negative for naturally derived COVID antibodies. That has been true of me, twice, over the past 18 months.
However, if it had been more than 3-4 weeks since my last test, I'd probably answer, "Probably not" or whatever that option was.
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I missed the poll, but it's awesome that there's a "no" option for a virus that's 75% asymptomatic. LOL
I absolutely get that. That said, I chose "no" and explained it:
I put no.
Obviously I probably should put "I don't think so but I doubt it", because I did not have several negative antibody tests prior to the vaccine to confirm I didn't have it...
But given that my wife was going to the office today, that I was shuttling kids back and forth to their mom's house, and given that literally nobody in my orbit incl wife's parents, kids' grandparents on mom's side, etc ever showed symptoms (and I don't know how we could have avoided spread) I feel pretty comfortable that I did not ever have it. SOMEONE would have shown up with symptoms somewhere, and nobody did.
If it's 75% asymptomatic (which is a stat I disagree with, I thought it was closer to 50% asymptomatic) and given how transmissible it is, I chose "no" because I think that's the most likely answer given the odds since NONE of the people in my orbit or my ex's orbit (since we shuttle the kids back and forth) ever got a symptomatic case.
At the very least, assume that I got it and it was transmissible JUST after my kids went back to their mom's house, so there was no chance I could pass it it to them. AND I didn't see anyone else other than my wife for the next week and a half until the kids came back. Well, I wasn't quarantining from my wife, so there's no way that I wouldn't have transmitted it to her.
If it's 50% asymptomatic, then with the two of us there's only a 25% chance of BOTH of us being asymptomatic.
But who would I have gotten it from? I wasn't going anywhere, and my wife was only going to the office and was distancing from her one coworker when the doctors were WFH. The only way that I would have gotten it is if I got it from the kids, which means that everyone in their mom's orbit gets pulled in to the question of a symptomatic case, and the odds go down much more.
So you can "lol" all you want, but some of us actually did put some real thought into the answer.
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You're right, no one SHOULD be forced to wear a mask.
But what do you do when a bulk of your populace is ignorant?
We made this seat belt here. For your safety. All you have to do is put it on. It works really well.
Nah, it's uncomfortable.
.
.
.
.
ALRIGHT, WTF PEOPLE?!! DON'T YOU WANT TO STAY ALIVE?!?! THAT'S IT, IT'S LAW NOW!!!! THERE, YOU'RE WELCOME!!!
Same-same, no?
I'm against seat belt laws. And motorcycle helmet laws.
I won't ride in a car without the belt, nor ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Because I'm not ignorant.
But I don't think we need this law just to save the ignorant from their ignorance.
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There's no drama coming from me. I do see lots of people freaking out here, and elsewhere, when I say what I feel about it all. I view the drama as being entirely on their side. *shrug*
I read the invoking of the Declaration of Independence and the invoking of freedoms as a bit dramatic. Maybe I’m unusual, but I think it’s a far more mundane than all that.
On the plus side, if you just don’t do it except when asked in places where it makes sense (I.e. not outside in a park or something), I’m betting it’ll come up rarely if ever. Most people don’t want to make a scene, and the ones that do likely will no matter the law. Unless your office is being super draconian or something.
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I read the invoking of the Declaration of Independence and the invoking of freedoms as a bit dramatic. Maybe I’m unusual, but I think it’s a far more mundane than all that.
On the plus side, if you just don’t do it except when asked in places where it makes sense (I.e. not outside in a park or something), I’m betting it’ll come up rarely if ever. Most people don’t want to make a scene, and the ones that do likely will no matter the law. Unless your office is being super draconian or something.
The fact that you think citing the Declaration of Independence is being "dramatic" really tells me all I need to know here.
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Well, I simply assume that the mask has some non-zero benefit to me personally. I don't have any quantification of that--maybe it's only 5% reduction in the likelihood that in a given scenario I'll contract COVID, or perhaps that it won't stop me from contracting COVID but it might reduce viral load such that I have a less severe case, etc.
But otherwise, I do agree. What I think we know so far is that masks reduce R0 of COVID, and we believe that the reduction is more related to catching someone's outgoing breath and reducing emissions of the virus than stopping the virus on the incoming breath.
this is my understanding as well. the negligible amount of protection for yourself is just that, negligible. it's there, but not worth mentioning really. the real protection come from group effort, which we're lacking enough to not be effective.
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I'm against seat belt laws. And motorcycle helmet laws.
I won't ride in a car without the belt, nor ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Because I'm not ignorant.
But I don't think we need this law just to save the ignorant from their ignorance.
Okay.....but the ignorant have kids at home who are orphaned when their ignorance kills them. They have a job that expects them to show up and 100 other interconnected reasons they need saving from themselves.
With that being said, and with all of the laws on the books doing this already, it seems especially silly to draw the line at a mask.
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this is my understanding as well. the negligible amount of protection for yourself is just that, negligible. it's there, but not worth mentioning really. the real protection come from group effort, which we're lacking enough to not be effective.
The real protection comes from group effort of being vaccinated. That's the failure we're encountering here.
That so much focus continues to fall on the masks, is just one more in a long list of ways, that the messaging has been completely screwed up, for a very long time.
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I'm against seat belt laws. And motorcycle helmet laws.
I won't ride in a car without the belt, nor ride a motorcycle without a helmet. Because I'm not ignorant.
But I don't think we need this law just to save the ignorant from their ignorance.
i'll agree with the motorcycle helmet, but again seat belts don't just save yourself. in an accident without a seat belt, you (potentially) become a projectile endangering others. it's my understanding this was a heavy consideration when making those laws. unlike masks, though, seat belts to also provide a substantial boost to your own health if used. but, again, you're not only protecting the ignorant from themselves. you're protecting others from the ignorant.
i watched a video with a similar dilemma about personal privacy and genetic mapping. basically, the way they can map stuff on 23 and me and similar sites, my identity is not longer private, despite me never having done one of those tests. my decision to not have the privacy was made by someone's choice. someone i probably don't even know. it's an interesting concept. link to video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT18KJouHWg
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The real protection comes from group effort of being vaccinated. That's the failure we're encountering here.
That so much focus continues to fall on the masks, is just one more in a long list of ways, that the messaging has been completely screwed up, for a very long time.
whole-heartedly agree. but masks could have been a major help prior to vaccines, and should, imo, be using in conjunction with them to stop it quicker.
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You're just falling prey to the worldwide conspiracy, man!
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The fact that you think citing the Declaration of Independence is being "dramatic" really tells me all I need to know here.
What does it tell you about me? Generally curious?
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The fact that you think citing the Declaration of Independence is being "dramatic" really tells me all I need to know here.
Really?
The government taking tens of thousands of dollars from me every year does a HELL of a lot more to limit my liberty and pursuit of happiness than a mask mandate. That they have decided that because I choose to actually have a job, they're entitled to whatever portion of my income that they decide in Washington and Sacramento they vote for?
If a mask mandate violates the spirit of the Declaration of Independence because of your personal comfort in a post-vaccine world, how does it not violate the spirit of the Declaration of Independence in a pre-vaccine world? Because I'll bet it's just as uncomfortable and affects your liberty and pursuit of happiness equally, it's just that the benefit is greater in a pre-vaccine world...
Now, I don't think you were exactly citing the Declaration perhaps in the way BAB is implying, but if you were, that WOULD be dramatic.
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i'll agree with the motorcycle helmet, but again seat belts don't just save yourself. in an accident without a seat belt, you (potentially) become a projectile endangering others. it's my understanding this was a heavy consideration when making those laws. unlike masks, though, seat belts to also provide a substantial boost to your own health if used. but, again, you're not only protecting the ignorant from themselves. you're protecting others from the ignorant.
There is some evidence that wearing a seat belt makes you more capable of controlling your vehicle during extreme maneuvering to avoid a collision, and not wearing a seat belt makes it hard to control your car if you're flying side to side within it.
I personally, to use your word regarding personal benefit of masks, find that benefit of a seat belt "negligible". Most vehicle fatalities occur due to inattention, or drunkenness, etc, not because someone couldn't evade a crash because they weren't strapped in.
I don't think the argument for a seat belt law is justifiable based on your "projectile" concern. How many lives are lost from human projectiles flying out of cars?
Would we save more lives than are lost by human projectiles by mandating that all cars be equipped with 5-point racing harnesses and people wear a helmet while driving? I'll bet we would. But I don't see anyone suggesting we do that.
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There is some evidence that wearing a seat belt makes you more capable of controlling your vehicle during extreme maneuvering to avoid a collision, and not wearing a seat belt makes it hard to control your car if you're flying side to side within it.
I personally, to use your word regarding personal benefit of masks, find that benefit of a seat belt "negligible". Most vehicle fatalities occur due to inattention, or drunkenness, etc, not because someone couldn't evade a crash because they weren't strapped in.
I don't think the argument for a seat belt law is justifiable based on your "projectile" concern. How many lives are lost from human projectiles flying out of cars?
Would we save more lives than are lost by human projectiles by mandating that all cars be equipped with 5-point racing harnesses and people wear a helmet while driving? I'll bet we would. But I don't see anyone suggesting we do that.
Coincidentally, I saw an example of this on the local news last night. Neither the driver nor his young son were belted.
The young son was the projectile, and then the driver's trucked rolled on top of him and killed him. The unbelted driver lived, of course.
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If a lady walks down the street top half unmasked, she will face punishment from the government. Even if it lets her pursue happiness.
If she does so next to a school because she likes walking her neighborhood, she’ll face considerably more punishment, and a hefty majority of the country would support it.
And if she does the school thing, the government might well declare she cannot live in the vast majority of the town or city in which she lives, again with somewhat broad support.
Similarly, my giblets must be masked outside. Their right to happiness also abridged.
These abridgments of rights are treated as a mundane part of society. And somewhat normal. And in that vein, I’d call a mask mandate a mundane abridgment. I think they should probably stop having them unless a good reason is presented, but again, highly mundane.
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Coincidentally, I saw an example of this on the local news last night. Neither the driver nor his young son were belted.
The young son was the projectile, and then the driver's trucked rolled on top of him and killed him. The unbelted driver lived, of course.
Well that’s awful.
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Why do some people act like their rights are all that matter? You're not an island. I have the right to rush to the door and exit, but I slow down and open the door for the old lady because it's courteous.
I love how wearing a mask for the courtesy of the health of others just isn't even an option for some. What a great world we live in.
Sure, I take issue when my rights are infringed upon UNLESS IT'S FOR A GOOD REASON. Whether it's wearing a mask or paying taxes, I do it, because it's for a good reason.
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Why do some people act like their rights are all that matter? You're not an island. I have the right to rush to the door and exit, but I slow down and open the door for the old lady because it's courteous.
I love how wearing a mask for the courtesy of the health of others just isn't even an option for some. What a great world we live in.
Sure, I take issue when my rights are infringed upon UNLESS IT'S FOR A GOOD REASON. Whether it's wearing a mask or paying taxes, I do it, because it's for a good reason.
I'm vaccinated. There is no good reason to require me to wear a mask.
Taking away people's rights for NO reason, has a name. And it ain't Liberty.
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I'm vaccinated. There is no good reason to require me to wear a mask.
Taking away people's rights for NO reason, has a name. And it ain't Liberty.
Especially because we were all told we would not have to wear a mask - only if we got vaccinated.
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It's not either/or....it's additive. The vaccination is the biggest, best step you can take. A mask is the next best, while being much lower down. Below that still, is social distancing (physical distancing, not staying home).
All 3 is the best practice. I can't really do the last one, but I do the first 2.
Saying I did the first one and so I don't have to do the others isn't really sensical.
Anyway, I don't see any reason vaccinated people should bicker....the problem is the unvaccinated.
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It's not either/or....it's additive. The vaccination is the biggest, best step you can take. A mask is the next best, while being much lower down. Below that still, is social distancing (physical distancing, not staying home).
All 3 is the best practice. I can't really do the last one, but I do the first 2.
Saying I did the first one and so I don't have to do the others isn't really sensical.
Anyway, I don't see any reason vaccinated people should bicker....the problem is the unvaccinated.
The science tells us there is not a statistically significant improvement to wearing a mask, once you've been vaccinated.
I'm an engineer and I tend to follow the science.
Other people latch on to hysteria but that's not really my thing.
As long as the science tells me that the difference in safety for me, and others, between being vaccinated and not wearing a mask, and being vaccinated and wearing a mask, is not statistically significant, then I'm going to go ahead and keep on saying there is NO reason for the government to mandate that vaccinated individuals like me, should wear masks.
For all the "follow the science" rhetoric I heard early-on from certain groups, they certainly seem to have abandoned that position recently. It doesn't make any sense to me, but people do weird things for weird reasons, and there you have it.
I'd agree that our problems are with the unvaccinated, except honestly, that's not my problem. It's theirs.
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I don't know about yall, but I'm done with this circular argument. Everybody here made their point a long time ago.