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Topic: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #154 on: November 15, 2017, 12:55:35 PM »
The playoff has changed cfb in an interesting way.  It has fundamentally changed rooting interests into something much more similar to the CBB model than the old CFB model.  Allow me to explain:

In CBB if your team is a bubble team your rooting interest is generally to always root for the favories/higher ranked teams because upsets by fellow bubble teams are bad for your teams chances.  

Pre-playoff in CFB if your team was on the BCSNCG or NC "bubble" your rooting interest was always to root for upsets because you needed highly-ranked teams to lose in order to clear a path.  

Looking at Ohio State right now, they are basically a playoff "bubble team".  They aren't in, and obviously would not be in the CFP if the season ended today.  However, they aren't completely out because there is at least a theoretical chance that they could make the top-4.  If you are a fan of a bubble team and you want them in the playoff then your rooting interest is for:
  • The higher ranked team in the SEC (because Bama winning out would eliminate Auburn and UGA as competitors.  
  • The better record team in the ACC (because Miami winning out would eliminate Clemson as a competitor.  
  • Upsets in the B12 (because Ohio State can't pass Oklahoma without Oklahoma losing at least once.  
  • Anybody who plays Notre Dame (because the Irish at 10-2 are a competitor but at 9-3 or 8-4 they aren't.  

My thoughts on the field at this point:

IMHO, the following teams all control their own destiny:
  • #1 Bama:  If they win out they'll stay #1 and take out #6&7.  
  • #2 Clemson:  If they win out they'll stay at least #2 and take out #3.  
  • #3 Miami:  If they win out they'll move up to at least #2 by taking out #2 Clemson.  
  • #4 Oklahoma:  If they win out they'll move up to at least #3 because either Miami or Clemson will lose.  Additionally winning out would take out #12 TCU.  
  • #5 Wisconsin:  This latest poll makes clear what the rest of us have been telling badge all along.  If the Badgers win out they'll move up to at least #4 because either Clemson or Miami will necessarily lose.  
  • #6 Auburn:  If they win out they'll move up to at least #4 because either Clemson or Miami will necessarily lose and winning out would take out #1 and #7.  
  • #7 Georgia:  If they win out they'll move up to at least #4 because either Clemson or Miami will necessarily lose and winning out would assure that #1&6 are taken out.  

Teams that need help but are still theoretically alive:
  • #8 Notre Dame:  The Irish probably need a lot of help because conference championships are a stated consideration of the committee and Notre Dame can't win one.  They do have a tough SoS but they need at least one upset somewhere and they have to be concerned about being passed by a hypothetical 11-2 conference champion such as Ohio State, USC (unlikely because they beat them H2H), TCU, OkSU, WSU, or Michigan.  
  • #9 Ohio State:  I believe that Ohio State's situation is probably better than Notre Dame's because the Buckeyes can win a P5 Conference Championship Game and be a P5 Champ and the Irish can't.  
  • #10 Penn State:  The Nittany Lions need all kinds of help because they can't get to the B1GCG unless Ohio State loses out.  
  • #11 USC:  The Trojans need help because they probably can't pass Notre Dame unless the Irish lose again.  
  • #12 TCU:  The Horned Frogs control their own destiny to a B12 Championship but they likely need a lot of help because that wouldn't get them past the B1GCG winner without an upset somewhere.  
  • #13 OkSU:  The Cowboys need a lot of help because they can't even get to the B12CG without somebody upsetting TCU.  
  • #14 WSU:  The Cougars control their own destiny to the P12 Championship but they need help because that will not be enough without a rash of upsets elsewhere.  
  • #18 Washington:  The Huskies need all kinds of help because they can't get to the P12CG unless Stanford loses to Cal (hey, WSU did so I guess it could happen).  
  • #24 Michigan:  The Wolverines need all kinds of help because they can't get to the B1GCG unless both PSU and MSU lose again.  What makes that unlikely is that PSU's and MSU's remaining opponents are Maryland (home and away), Rutgers (away), and Nebraska (home).  

There is almost no scenario in which any team outside of those 16 could make the playoff.  

The teams that need help and Auburn are all basically facing elimination each game from here on out because a 3-loss team is extremely unlikely to make it.  

Each of the six teams that control their own destiny and are not named Auburn could lose a game and still get back into the mix with enough upsets elsewhere.  

MaximumSam

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #155 on: November 15, 2017, 12:56:38 PM »
Buckeyes would be rooting for Alabama, Miami, and Oklahoma to win out.  That would make the top three very easy, and leave OSU's competitors as a 2 loss non champ Clemson team, a 2 loss Notre Dame team, and the Pac 12 champ (along with 2 loss Georgia and 1 loss Wisconsin, neither I find very likely).

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #156 on: November 15, 2017, 12:57:58 PM »
You are forgetting about the helmet factor. The most important of all factors.
I disagree.  Besides, if the Buckeyes end up as an 11-2 B1G Champion they are likely to be up against Notre Dame for a CFP spot and it doesn't get any more helmet than that.  Actually it could be between 11-2 B1G Champion Ohio State, 11-2 P12 Champion USC, and 10-2 Notre Dame.  Ohio State isn't going to win that based on helmet.  

utee94

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #157 on: November 15, 2017, 01:03:31 PM »
Helmet factor IS the most important of all factors, but I do agree with medina that in many possible scenarios, Ohio State would be going up against similarly helmety teams like USC and ND.  They're not going to get the benefit of a helmet bump in those scenarios.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #158 on: November 15, 2017, 01:04:27 PM »
Buckeyes would be rooting for Alabama, Miami, and Oklahoma to win out.  That would make the top three very easy, and leave OSU's competitors as a 2 loss non champ Clemson team, a 2 loss Notre Dame team, and the Pac 12 champ (along with 2 loss Georgia and 1 loss Wisconsin, neither I find very likely).
2-loss non-Champion Clemson isn't getting in.  Ohio State got in as a 1-loss non-Champion but that only happened because:
  • There were no 1-loss Champions available for the final slot, and
  • Ohio State had a H2H blowout road win over a P5 Champion.  

Clemson couldn't match that unless:
  • Auburn wins the SEC, and 
  • A slew of upsets created three-loss champions in the P12 and B1G, and 
  • Clemson can go back in time, move their game against Auburn to Auburn, and win bigger.  
#1 is unlikely.  
#2 is extremely unlikely.  
#3 is impossible.  

TresselownsUM

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #159 on: November 15, 2017, 01:12:43 PM »
Buckeyes would be rooting for Alabama, Miami, and Oklahoma to win out.

we actually want Miami to lose to virgina or Pitt. that would guarantee a 2 loss ACC champ. a potential bad scenario is Clemson beating Miami, then you have an 11-1 Miami vs a 2 loss Ohio State. hard to say what the committee would do there. Miami would have a possible Top 10 win against ND if ND beats Standford. They might have a top 25 ranked win vs Va Tech. Ohio State would theoretically have better wins, 2 TOP 10 wins PSU and Wiscy, 1 Top 15 win MSU. but they also have the horrible Iowa loss. so do better wins get you in with the committee or does the worse loss knock you out?

but assuming Miami wins their next 2, then yes, we want Miami to beat Clemson.

847badgerfan

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #160 on: November 15, 2017, 01:14:21 PM »
Helmet factor IS the most important of all factors, but I do agree with medina that in many possible scenarios, Ohio State would be going up against similarly helmety teams like USC and ND.  They're not going to get the benefit of a helmet bump in those scenarios.

Helmet factor is why Ohio State is ranked ahead of, say, TCU, for example.
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utee94

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #161 on: November 15, 2017, 01:18:24 PM »
Helmet factor is why Ohio State is ranked ahead of, say, TCU, for example.
Agree.
I think ESPN's selection committee's rankings are also already reflecting a bit of an assumed loss for TCU in the presumed B12 CCG rematch.  They don't do this for all teams, but TCU is a decidedly non-helmet and gets far less BOTD as a result.

MaximumSam

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #162 on: November 15, 2017, 01:25:53 PM »
They seem to like the B1G - 6 teams in the top 25

847badgerfan

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #163 on: November 15, 2017, 01:28:03 PM »
Agree.
I think ESPN's selection committee's rankings are also already reflecting a bit of an assumed loss for TCU in the presumed B12 CCG rematch.  They don't do this for all teams, but TCU is a decidedly non-helmet and gets far less BOTD as a result.

TCU has a similar resume to Ohio State, but also has a very good road win - something Ohio State does not have yet.

Both lost to OU, but Ohio State accomplished that feat at home while TCU's was on the road.

I'm not convinced that TCU wouldn't beat OU in a "neutral" game near its home.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #164 on: November 15, 2017, 01:29:17 PM »
Agree.
I think ESPN's selection committee's rankings are also already reflecting a bit of an assumed loss for TCU in the presumed B12 CCG rematch.  They don't do this for all teams, but TCU is a decidedly non-helmet and gets far less BOTD as a result.
I disagree.  TCU's OOC opponents were:
  • FCS Jackson State
  • 4-6 Arkansas
  • 6-4 (in the AAC) SMU
They made their bed.  When you schedule that OOC you just have to accept the fact that you aren't going to get the BOTD against a team with the same record.  

847badgerfan

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #165 on: November 15, 2017, 01:46:43 PM »
I disagree.  TCU's OOC opponents were:
  • FCS Jackson State
  • 4-6 Arkansas
  • 6-4 (in the AAC) SMU
They made their bed.  When you schedule that OOC you just have to accept the fact that you aren't going to get the BOTD against a team with the same record.  
Arky was probably very good when they scheduled that game - which was on the road by the way. Not much you can do about that, and it should not be penalized.

The strength of their conference foes has to be considered as well. Like I said, they have some really good wins to go with their two road losses.
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utee94

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #166 on: November 15, 2017, 01:53:45 PM »
Arky was probably very good when they scheduled that game - which was on the road by the way. Not much you can do about that, and it should not be penalized.

The strength of their conference foes has to be considered as well. Like I said, they have some really good wins to go with their two road losses.
Yeah, Arkansas is about the best tier of P5 opponents that's going to bother with scheduling TCU for a home-and-home.  Prior to that, they had a 2-game series with Minnesota, and before that, Virginia.  That's exactly the tier of P5 opponents that are going to be willing to schedule TCU for home-and-home series.

PSUinNC

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Re: Playoffs! Did someone say Playoffs?
« Reply #167 on: November 15, 2017, 02:12:45 PM »
Arky was probably very good when they scheduled that game - which was on the road by the way. Not much you can do about that, and it should not be penalized.

The strength of their conference foes has to be considered as well. Like I said, they have some really good wins to go with their two road losses.
Weren't we discussing just a few pages ago that Penn St needs to stop scheduling Pitt for this exact reason?  Pitt was actually playing Top 25 football when the series was announced, and PSU had to deal with the pending sanctions.  So, PSU shouldn't be penalized either then right?  PSU lost two gut wrenchers, on the road, against Top 20 teams.  Would you put TCU ahead of PSU?

 

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