header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: Other P5 CG races

 (Read 1119 times)

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8911
  • Liked:
Other P5 CG races
« on: November 03, 2023, 10:58:31 AM »
ACC:
No divisions here.  FSU can clinch a spot in the ACCCG with a win at Pitt this weekend.  

The two leaders for the other spot (L'Ville and VaTech) play each other in Louisville.  The winner doesn't mathematically clinch the other spot but they'll have a big lead.  

SEC:
East:
Georgia can't mathematically clinch this weekend but they can do everything but.  With a win they'd have at least a 2-game lead on everybody and a 2-game lead plus the H2H tiebreaker on both UF and Mizzou.  Ie, if they win tomorrow the only way they would miss the SECCG would be if they lost their last two AND Tennessee won their last two.  

West:
Alabama hosts LSU tomorrow and if the Tide win they could only miss the SECCG by losing their last two SEC games (@UK, @Aub).  If LSU wins it creates a three-way tie atop the SEC-W with no obvious tiebreaker because Bama>Ole Miss>LSU>Bama.  Based on a quick google and a skim of the SEC's tiebreaker rules I *THINK* this would be the same as the hypothetical B1G-E tie we've been talking about and the decisive factor would be record of the teams' SEC-E opponents.  Any input @rolltidefan ?

Big 12:
No divisions here.  This one is a mess.  OU, ISU, OkSU, Tx, and KSU are all tied atop the standings at 4-1.  Four of those five play each other this weekend (Bedlam in Stillwater and KSU/TX in Austin).  Behind those five Kansas and WVU are both 3-2 and not altogether out of the race so yeah, mess.  

P-whatever:
No divisions here.  Washington is in the lead at 5-0 but ever since their big win over Oregon they've looked like crap and now they have to go to USC.  Speaking of USC, they kinda got left for dead after they followed up the blowout loss in South Bend with a home loss to Utah but they control their own destiny.  They are 5-1 and if they beat Washington at home this weekend then go to Oregon and win next weekend, they'll be playing in Vegas in December.  I think most people would agree that the Ducks (4-1) are the best looking team in the league lately but they have that loss to Washington so their margin for error is basically nil. Behind the aforementioned undefeated and one-loss teams there are four 3-2 teams (OrSU, UT, Zona, UCLA) that are all at least mathematically in the race.   

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71664
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2023, 11:15:08 AM »
The old SEC rule was to drop the lowest ranked third party in any tie and then use H2H with the two remaining teams.  I don't know if that is still extant.

So, Alabama might get dropped if they lost to LSU and Ole Miss probably would win wth H2H at LSU, but Ole Miss plays at UGA next week and will be a substantial dog.


medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8911
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2023, 11:38:07 AM »
Ole Miss plays at UGA next week and will be a substantial dog.
I should have mentioned that UGA/Ole Miss game but I neglected it largely because it probably only becomes relevant IF LSU wins in Tuscaloosa.
The old SEC rule was to drop the lowest ranked third party in any tie and then use H2H with the two remaining teams.  I don't know if that is still extant.
Here is the link I found.  This, however, was posted about nine years ago so I do not know if it is current. In case this is the current tiebreaker, it starts by stipulating that if only two teams remain after any step, those two revert to the two-team tiebreaker (H2H):
  • H2H2H: would be tied.
  • Divisional record: would be tied
  • Record against the best team(s) in the division, then the next, etc: would be tied
  • Record against non-divisional teams (this makes no sense to me because if the teams in question have the same record and the same divisional record then their non-divisional record is necessarily the same, no?)
  • Record against common non-divisional teams: would be tied
  • Record against the best common non-divisional team, then the next, etc: would be tied.
  • Conference record of non-divisional opponents.


rolltidefan

  • Global Moderator
  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2023, 03:37:05 PM »
I should have mentioned that UGA/Ole Miss game but I neglected it largely because it probably only becomes relevant IF LSU wins in Tuscaloosa. Here is the link I found.  This, however, was posted about nine years ago so I do not know if it is current. In case this is the current tiebreaker, it starts by stipulating that if only two teams remain after any step, those two revert to the two-team tiebreaker (H2H):
  • H2H2H: would be tied.
  • Divisional record: would be tied
  • Record against the best team(s) in the division, then the next, etc: would be tied
  • Record against non-divisional teams (this makes no sense to me because if the teams in question have the same record and the same divisional record then their non-divisional record is necessarily the same, no?)
  • Record against common non-divisional teams: would be tied
  • Record against the best common non-divisional team, then the next, etc: would be tied.
  • Conference record of non-divisional opponents.


this is still accurate as far as i am aware.

i think it'd come down to #7, which as of now is:
ole miss opp: 5-5 (uga 5-0 and vandy 0-5)
bama opp: 5-5 (tenn 3-2 and uk 2-3)
lsu opp: 6-3 (uf 3-2 and mizz 3-1)

by end of season, assuming lsu beats bama and they all win out after, also assuming rest of games are chalk, it'd be:

ole miss opp: 7-9 (got to assume om beats uga for this to matter)
bama opp: 8-8
lsu opp: 10-6

lsu wouldn't necessarily win here (though practically they do). what would happen is ole miss would be dropped, and it goes 2 team tie breaker between bama/lsu. and first tie breaker there is h2h and lsu wins there.

but if say lsu and ole miss opp records are swapped, ole miss doesn't win, despite having best overall record. lsu would be dropped, but bama wins the h2h with ole miss. so bama would win division.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8911
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2023, 03:55:56 PM »
this is still accurate as far as i am aware.

i think it'd come down to #7, which as of now is:
ole miss opp: 5-5 (uga 5-0 and vandy 0-5)
bama opp: 5-5 (tenn 3-2 and uk 2-3)
lsu opp: 6-3 (uf 3-2 and mizz 3-1)

by end of season, assuming lsu beats bama and they all win out after, also assuming rest of games are chalk, it'd be:

ole miss opp: 7-9 (got to assume om beats uga for this to matter)
bama opp: 8-8
lsu opp: 10-6

lsu wouldn't necessarily win here (though practically they do). what would happen is ole miss would be dropped, and it goes 2 team tie breaker between bama/lsu. and first tie breaker there is h2h and lsu wins there.

but if say lsu and ole miss opp records are swapped, ole miss doesn't win, despite having best overall record. lsu would be dropped, but bama wins the h2h with ole miss. so bama would win division.
Thanks for your input.  

That is wild if the team with the best opponents record doesn't win but rather the team with the worst opponents record is eliminated then the other two revert to H2H.  I didn't read it that way at all.  Are you sure?  It says "If one of the procedures results in one team being eliminated and two remaining, the two-team tiebreaker procedure as stated in No. 1 above (H2H) will be used".  

I don't think it much matters because basically any reading of that would go to LSU and the Ole Miss/UGA game doesn't matter either since, in this scenario, LSU would beat Bama in a two-team tie anyway so basically if LSU beats Bama, Bama needs LSU to lose.  

rolltidefan

  • Global Moderator
  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2023, 04:43:27 PM »
you're right, it does read that way, but several years back this almost happened and i remember sankey, i think, came on radio explaining it the way i described (and cincy did above). the goal from a 3+ team tie is to just eliminate  teams until only 2 are left, not to find the winner. basically, they want to get to h2h somehow, so they find a way to drop teams until there is 2 left. and if they can't then flip a coin.

things may have changed, or maybe he misspoke or i misunderstood, but he was pretty explicit with it. i know tie breaker 7 used to be bcs rank, but they changed it to this when cfp come on. maybe it's since changed the first part to be like you said and how it actually reads now.

rolltidefan

  • Global Moderator
  • Starter
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 2219
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2023, 04:48:00 PM »
 

I don't think it much matters because basically any reading of that would go to LSU and the Ole Miss/UGA game doesn't matter either since, in this scenario, LSU would beat Bama in a two-team tie anyway so basically if LSU beats Bama, Bama needs LSU to lose. 
that's true. only reason i noted om needs to beat uga is because if they don't it's not a 3 way tie anymore. and i originally had their presumed record at 808 with uga winning out, but that means they beat om, and that can't happen in this scenario as just noted.

i guess they could lose to uga, and bama and lsu drop to uk and uf or something. but then we're still in same situation, just slightly better records for east div opps across the board. and worse for west contenders.

medinabuckeye1

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 8911
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2023, 04:51:50 PM »
Thank you for clarifying. That seems like a really strange way to interpret what is written there but that is why I asked for input from SEC guys.  You would know/remember things like the Commissioner's comments from several years ago.

MikeDeTiger

  • All Star
  • ******
  • Posts: 2990
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #8 on: November 03, 2023, 05:23:16 PM »
I think rtf is correct about this and it remains the case this year.  

Though it's all a bit like asking who has the best bunker to hide in if we all get invaded by aliens tomorrow.  Ole Miss is almost certainly going to lose @UGA, and LSU is only slightly less likely to lose @Bama.  If they somehow win, they'll just do something stupid, like lose to Florida or to a bad Texas A&M again.  

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37617
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #9 on: November 03, 2023, 07:37:20 PM »
I'm always content to wait until the 3-way tie happens
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71664
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2023, 06:47:14 AM »
It's an example of the minutia we sometimes delve into around here (which is fine with me).  It did happen once in the SEC E that I can recall.

I know if UGA beats Mizzou and Ole Miss they are in.  If Mizzou wins, they have the inside track if they win out.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37617
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2023, 08:40:30 AM »
I'd bet some money that the 3-way tie in the Big Ten East won't happen.

And I'd have placed that bet pre-season or next week

Hell, the Big Ten west has 4 teams tied at the top this morning
Probably won't end in a 3-way
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71664
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2023, 10:12:38 AM »
I think we all figure that 3 way tie is improbable, even today.  Too many things have to fall one way, and they likely won't.

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71664
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: Other P5 CG races
« Reply #13 on: November 05, 2023, 06:42:33 AM »
The SEC races have been clarified, but not confirmed, of course, with Bama and UGA probable to get back to ATL.  Each needs to win one of the remaining two.

Bama plays at UK and Auburn.  They COULD drop one of those, possibly, but probably not both.  They have a 1+ game lead over Ole Miss.

UGA gets Ole Miss at home next week and then plays At Tennessee.  The Vols are the only team that could head them off if the Dawgs lose both and Tenn wins out.  The Vols play at Mizzou next week though and Mizzou looked pretty salty yesterday in Athens.  Ole Miss is not walk in the park.

UGA has been vulnerable to "mobile" (and backup) QBs, and Bama has the former.  My GUESS at this point is they edge UGA and get into the CFP.  And it's possible UGA drops the next two.

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.