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Topic: OT - Weird History

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2730 on: December 16, 2023, 12:14:15 PM »
@MrNubbz are you willing to admit:

  • Churchill did not order Repulse and POW out of Singapore.
  • Japan did not have 18 carriers in Decembe, 1941.
  • Japan did not have 11 Fleet Carriers in Decembe, 1941.
All three of these are false statements that you implied (#1) or made #2 and #3). 

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2731 on: December 16, 2023, 12:47:13 PM »
Ah,sure Medina Military Memoirs obviously reading gives you a head ache try watching the Telly..Everything I've presented are from books or historitcal BRITISH Docus,not my PoV time stamped LISTEN from 1:50 -  listen thru to  4:30 .Even Corelli Barnett chimed in - stating they would be facing much more sophisticated  Japanese Aviation than the British sent after the Bismark.


https://youtu.be/-kkrHswfPVs?list=PLk2daSTx1RZutv3b8jZl1AOdq0PNZ8JQl&t=100
I'm going to spell this out in the simplest of terms it's the clear the 2 dispatched ships had DONE NOTHING to deter japan as hoped - still with plenty of time to turn back.As the historian states the presence or absense of a few more British ships were not going change anything.By December 8th they had launched attacks against Hong Kong,Malaya,East Indies Burma and PH - the allies were decisevely outnumbered.The mission had failed before they even fired a shot. The Brandy addled Churchill had plenty of time to back off the gas after that - but pressed on

Made very clear the admiralty was not keen of the idea.1st Sea Lord Pound wanted to send the older boats but many more of them.WC went with P.O.W. that was less than a year from being launched - "thinking it a British Bismark"

« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 03:55:56 PM by MrNubbz »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2732 on: December 16, 2023, 12:53:46 PM »
@Cincydawg maybe you can get somewhere with Nubbz.

Nubbz, you have made false statements and you refuse to acknowledge them. Why?
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2733 on: December 16, 2023, 01:28:55 PM »
I'm not a liar watch the videos or is that concept a little too complex.Stop acting like you're Zeus tossing down edicts from Mount Olympus.2 full days to call off the dogs but you can't admit it.HAPPY KWAANZA
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2734 on: December 16, 2023, 01:38:30 PM »
Quote from: MrNubbz on December 16, 2023, 01:28:55 PM
I'm not a liar watch the videos or is that concept a little too complex.Stop acting like you're Zeus tossing down edicts from Mount Olympus.2 full days to call off the dogs but you can't admit it.HAPPY KWAANZA
I never called you a liar, but you did make multiple false statements. I just assumed you were ignorant.

The facts are these:

  • Admiral Cunningham and hid officers at Singapore ordered Repulse and POW out to contest the invasion of Malaysia, Churchill had nothing to do with it.
  • Japan had six operationsl fleet carriers as of December 7, 1941 and NEVER had more than that operational at any one time.

You implied that Churchill ordered Repulse and POW out of Singapore to contest the invasion, that is false. Churchill gave no orders regarding Repulse and POW between PH and their loss.

You also stated that Japan had 18 carriers later amended to 11 fleet carriers on December 4, 1941. I have given links to prove this is also false.

I haven't questioned your character because I assumed you were merely ignorant but your continued refusal to admit your mistakes is troubling.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2735 on: December 16, 2023, 01:43:48 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on December 16, 2023, 12:53:46 PM
@Cincydawg maybe you can get somewhere with Nubbz.
Not my job.  I think it interesting to discuss.  I certainly get things wrong at times obviously.  In hindsight, it was a mistake.  Maybe a different admiral would have managed better, though really I'm not sure how it would have made any difference in the ultimate result.

It is interesting, to me, how critical airpower was in WW Two.  Things like tanks and battleships get a lot of attention but perhaps more than they should.

I like tank and aircraft stuff a lot myself.  Logistics is boring but essential.
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MikeDeTiger

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2736 on: December 16, 2023, 02:10:58 PM »
There is a warfare version of analytics.  I wonder if/how much AI will change the next major conflict and if there will be fewer "errors" made by military leaders.  
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2737 on: December 16, 2023, 02:16:49 PM »
I had a buddy in grad school who  had all these board based war games refighting old battles, mostly WW 2.  We'd stay up all night doing one of them.  Then they went to computers and I would play against a computer and basically win every time, the computer algorithms back then were rudimentary.

I have one somewhere for the PTO and you can play either side.  If you take the US, you basically end up just bludgeoning the poor Japanese with massive stuff coming on line late in 1943.  Which is, well, duh.  If you play the Japanese side, you quickly start having major issues with training because it requires gasoline which requires oil.  So, you have to develop oil resources quickly, and basically, you can't.  It's an unholy mess.  But I did learn a lot of geography.

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longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2738 on: December 16, 2023, 02:23:19 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on December 16, 2023, 01:38:30 PM
I never called you a liar, but you did make multiple false statements. I just assumed you were ignorant.

The facts are these:

  • Admiral Cunningham and hid officers at Singapore ordered Repulse and POW out to contest the invasion of Malaysia, Churchill had nothing to do with it.
  • Japan had six operationsl fleet carriers as of December 7, 1941 and NEVER had more than that operational at any one time.

You implied that Churchill ordered Repulse and POW out of Singapore to contest the invasion, that is false. Churchill gave no orders regarding Repulse and POW between PH and their loss.

You also stated that Japan had 18 carriers later amended to 11 fleet carriers on December 4, 1941. I have given links to prove this is also false.

I haven't questioned your character because I assumed you were merely ignorant but your continued refusal to admit your mistakes is troubling.
I show that number as 11 carriers is the difference based on the word fleet
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2739 on: December 16, 2023, 02:28:37 PM »
Yup, the term fleet carrier is fairly well defined.  The Japanese did have other "light carriers", one of which was sunk early in the war at Coral Sea.

Japanese aircraft carrier Shōhō | Military Wiki | Fandom

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2740 on: December 16, 2023, 04:12:34 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on December 16, 2023, 01:38:30 PM

I haven't questioned your character because I assumed you were merely ignorant but your continued refusal to admit your mistakes is troubling.
The amusement continues,FFS have some dignity and quit calling on another poster for validation and to back your play. Address the evidence on the video Pound/Eden/Historian all quoted,there is a comment section call him out and his sources - I'll grab the popcorn.



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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2741 on: December 16, 2023, 05:02:33 PM »
@MrNubbz please answer:

  • Are you standing by your assertion that Churchill gave orders regarding Repulse and POW after the PH attack?
  • Are you standing by your assertion that Japan had 18 carriers as of 12/7/41?
  • Are you standing by your assertion that Japan had 11 fleet carriers as of 12/7/41?

These are all false statements that you made in this thread.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 05:11:33 PM by medinabuckeye1 »
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2742 on: December 16, 2023, 07:54:09 PM »
You're new attempts at slithering about aren't any more convincing than your previous ones. You are moving the goal posts and the discussion from Churchill's complicity that originally caused to YOU smugly attack my comment and character to now the sources that I cached - try staying on point if that's not asking too much. Puhleeze I gave them and you didn't bother to watch- WC had two days - TWO to call those 2 capital Ships off and or back.I left those videos with their words - WATCH THEM. Again for your edification.I gave them and you didn't bother to watch and or remember.

- On December 7th Pearl Harbor,enough said
  the 8th a quick run down
All of this basically Simultaneously
-IJF attacked Malaya after landing after marching thru Thailand
-IJF land and attack the Dutch East Indies
-Battle of Hong Kong begins as 2.5 Divions land in the Phillipines
-IJF take the Gilbert Islands also Battles of Prachaub & Kirikhan begin
-IJF take the GIs garrisoned at Shanqhai & Tientsin
-Luzon is airfields are getting bombed and Bangkok is occupied
-Landings in Tarawa & Makin Islands
-Aerial Attacks on pretty much all of them Hong Kong,Guam,Phillipines,Shanghai,Singapore,Wake Island

Don't care to hear you didn't know,care to read or it's hindsight,it's not this all 2 days before those ships were sent to Davey Jones Locker on Decenber 10th.By all means try using the address bar at the top of the page to save me from your furthering your education.You attempting to excuse the Former 1st Lord of the Admiralty and the Prime Minister WC who didn't think or bother to call off that order that he indeed sent to the Admiral of the Fleet Sir Alfred Pound on November 25th before everything above had been unfolding


https://youtu.be/pKo4deZi2_Q?list=PLsIk0qF0R1j7tjOhaZY7dUquxuHWX5n3s
« Last Edit: December 16, 2023, 08:02:36 PM by MrNubbz »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2743 on: December 16, 2023, 08:08:24 PM »
Quote from: medinabuckeye1 on December 16, 2023, 05:02:33 PM
@MrNubbz please answer:

  • Are you standing by your assertion that Churchill gave orders regarding Repulse and POW after the PH attack?
  • Are you standing by your assertion that Japan had 18 carriers as of 12/7/41?
  • Are you standing by your assertion that Japan had 11 fleet carriers as of 12/7/41?

These are all false statements that you made in this thread.
Answer these questions or you have conceded that you were wrong.

You have an unbelievable level of audacity to imply that you can teach me about the Pacific War when you don't even know how many fleet carriers the IJN had.
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