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Topic: OT - Weird History

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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2674 on: December 10, 2023, 05:41:07 PM »
Correct. 
And the average fan doesn't realize his 75-yard run was due to the defenders attempting to strip the ball and failing to actually try to tackle him.
Whoa Nellie what a deflection, nothing to with strength,endurance,ability just a jaded team that didn't want to be there.Mmkay
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2675 on: December 11, 2023, 08:46:03 AM »
FACT OF THE DAY:

The United Nations passed the "Convention on the Law of the Sea" in 1994 and is now the recognized governing body in all legal matters concerning the world's oceans.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2676 on: December 11, 2023, 08:55:26 AM »

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2677 on: December 11, 2023, 09:08:59 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Adolf Eichmann Found Guilty of War Crimes (1961)
Adolf Eichmann was a high-ranking Nazi official who oversaw the maltreatment, deportation, and murder of millions of Jews during World War II. He promoted the use of gas chambers for the mass extermination of Jews in concentration camps and is considered to be largely responsible for the logistics of the Final Solution, which was the Nazi policy to exterminate millions of people. At the end of World War II, Eichmann went into hiding.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2678 on: December 11, 2023, 10:34:26 AM »
Churchill was ass for sending them,specially after the Imperial Japanese Navy just displayed in aces 3 days earlier what sea launched airpower was capable of. He couldn't bring himself to admit that Britania didn't rule the waves anymore.Japan had not only the biggest but most advanced NAVY afloat at the dawn of WWII
Churchill certainly made mistakes in WWII and both before (Dardenelles campaign was his baby in WWI and an unmitigated disaster) and after (Suez although not technically his, had his handprints on it).

They said, this criticism is wrong on several counts and just generally misdirected and unfair.

First, while Churchill's government did order Repulse and POW to Singapore, they did that to show resolve in the hopes of deterring Japanese aggression. That obviously failed but I would argue that it was worth a try.

Second, the implication that Prime Minister Churchill exercised day-by-day tactical control over warships operating out of a base almost half-way around the world from Downing Street is absurd.

Third, Churchill's orders regarding the two ships were obviously issued LONG before Pearl Harbor. The ships left England weeks before Pearl Harbor and Churchill's control ended then.

Fourth, Repulse and POW were not sent without air cover. They were sent with a carrier but it suffered damage and had to stop for repairs.

Fifth, Churchill would reasonably have assumed that Repulse and POW could operate under air cover provided from Singapore and other British bases in the region. The local command decided to send them beyond the range of that cover.

Sixth, in hindsight it was obviously ludicrous to send Repulse and POW beyond their air cover but that wasn't realized until after they met their demise. At Pearl Harbor and at Taranto before that IJN and RN planes had sunk and damaged heavy ships but a lot of people still thought that was because the ships were caught by surprise and unable to maneuver. The first heavy ships ever sunk at sea by air power alone were . . .

Repulse and Prince of Wales.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2679 on: December 11, 2023, 10:58:22 AM »
I agree, and the Dardanelles was a solid strategic concept, just very very poorly handled.

The Japanese used mostly Nell bombers and some newer Bettys, land based twin engine, as I recall, able to launch torpedoes.  I should look it up.

The were in range of air cover but it arrived too late.


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2680 on: December 11, 2023, 11:45:22 AM »
I agree, and the Dardanelles was a solid strategic concept, just very very poorly handled.

The Japanese used mostly Nell bombers and some newer Bettys, land based twin engine, as I recall, able to launch torpedoes.  I should look it up.

The were in range of air cover but it arrived too late.
I didn't explain what I meant with "beyond their air cover" very well. 

You are correct, the Repulse and POW were within the flight range of some British aircraft but there were not enough aircraft to cover the distance AND maintain a constant air cover.

That the air cover arrived too late is due to an inherent flaw in the plan. If you don't have air cover in place then it can only be brought in when needed and called for. By the time you need it, it is too late to call for it.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2681 on: December 11, 2023, 03:08:43 PM »
Churchill was the leader the world needed, which makes him a hero to many (including me). He was also human, and, as a result, flawed.

Shocking, I know.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2682 on: December 12, 2023, 12:23:22 PM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 
First Transatlantic Radio Signal Received (1901)
Marconi was the Nobel Prize-winning Italian creator of the radio telegraph system. At 21, while experimenting with a homemade apparatus, he successfully sent signals across a distance of more than a mile and set off to London with his mother to find support for his work. He patented his system, organized a company to develop its commercial applications, and, in 1901, transmitted the first transatlantic wireless signal.
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2683 on: December 14, 2023, 11:26:11 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

World's Tallest Vehicular Bridge Formally Dedicated (2004)
The Millau Viaduct is the world's highest road bridge, peaking at a height of 1,125 ft (343 m) and stretching across 8,071 ft (2,460 m). Designed by British architect Norman Foster and French structural engineer Michel Virlogeux, the cable-stayed, multispan steel structure crosses the Tarn River near the town of Millau in southern France. After more than a decade of planning and construction, the bridge was inaugurated by French president Jacques Chirac in 2004.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2684 on: December 14, 2023, 12:08:43 PM »

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2685 on: December 14, 2023, 04:27:05 PM »
Third, Churchill's orders regarding the two ships were obviously issued LONG before Pearl Harbor. The ships left England weeks before Pearl Harbor and Churchill's control ended then.So situation changed and they went ahead as Pearl Harbor was still smoking - DUMB.Irrelevant when they left or orders were issued there was now a clear and present danger.With a whole Island pummeled two ships would be target pratice

Fourth, Repulse and POW were not sent without air cover. They were sent with a carrier but it suffered damage and had to stop for repairs.So no air power in other words - DUMB.And still forged ahead

Fifth, Churchill would reasonably have assumed that Repulse and POW could operate under air cover provided from Singapore and other British bases in the region. And what happens when someone ASSUMES?

Sixth, in hindsight it was obviously ludicrous to send Repulse and POW beyond their air cover but that wasn't realized until after they met their demise. At Pearl Harbor and at Taranto before that IJN and RN planes had sunk and damaged heavy ships but a lot of people still thought that was because the ships were caught by surprise and unable to maneuver. The above statements are not hindsight that should be was an obvious blunder not factoring in the reasults of just 3 days earlier.Japan had at least 18 carriers at that time and w/o knowing their location well that was just DUMB
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2686 on: December 14, 2023, 04:53:34 PM »
The British ships were not sunk by carrier aircraft, as I noted above.  And they were in range of air cover, they just didn't have it when it mattered.  The British had Buffalos, an obsolete US fighter with limited range and loiter time.

So, effectively, they had no air cover (duh). Admiral Phillips gave the orders to sally forth under those conditions, it wouldn't have been Churchill directly.  They apparently were attempting to intercept a naval invasion force.  Bear in mind also they feared being caught in port unable to manuever or get up steam by bombers (as with Pearl Harbor).  The admiral believed that Japanese bombers would be unable to effectively attack capital ships, and he was way too late to call for air cover, a serious, critical mistake.

Following the Japanese Attack on Pearl Harbor, the Japanese landed in northern Malaya on December 8.  The Royal Navy battleship, HMS Prince of Wales and battlecruiser HMS Repulse, along with four destroyers were sent to attack the invasion force.  In the late morning of December 10, after finding no targets, the Royal Navy ships were returning to Singapore and were attacked and sunk by Japanese bombers and torpedo planes.    Having no aerial defense, the ships became the first Allied warships sunk by air attack while operating on the high-seas in the Pacific War.  

The Repulse and Prince of Wales Battleships: How They Sunk (warfarehistorynetwork.com)


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2687 on: December 14, 2023, 05:53:02 PM »
@MrNubbz 
Your post is riddled with errors.  You can say that Churchill made some dumb decisions without criticizing him for things that were not dumb at the time, not his decision, neither, or some combination.  

@MrNubbz said:
"So situation changed (PH) and they went ahead as Pearl Harbor was still smoking - DUMB.  Irrelevant when hey left or orders were issued there was now a clear and present danger.  With a whole Island pummeled two ships would be target practice"

  • This is CLEARLY well below the level of a decision that the Prime Minister would be responsible for.  
  • You are asking for an impossible level of speedy change in military doctrine.  This is like saying that the French should have adapted to the Blitzkreig tactics while the Battle of France was ongoing.  Sure, they *SHOULD* have, but they didn't.  Why?  Because it takes more than 30 seconds to completely rearrange a military doctrine that has been enshrined for decades and taught to every level of officer.  These things can't be changed instantaneously because you can't go back in time and retroactively retrain your entire officer corps with the new doctrine.  
  • The actual level of destruction at Pearl Harbor wouldn't necessarily have been clear to even the American let alone the British high command within the three days.  There is literally no chance of any military in the history of militaries being able to learn the lessons of Pearl Harbor and then completely change their doctrines based on those lessons in 72 hours.  To suggest otherwise is absurd.  
  • The whole island wasn't pummeled.  On the contrary, much debate in the eight decades since Pearl Harbor has focused on Nagumo's decision NOT to send the third wave which would have attacked the base facilities.  The attack sank or damaged a number of ships and destroyed a vast number of US Aircraft (mostly on the ground) but did almost no damage AT ALL to the base facilities.  Pearl Harbor was able to continue to function as an effective fleet base because their drydocks, ship repair facilities, oil storage tanks, and sundry were almost completely unscathed in the attack.  This is to say nothing of the radar installations, shore artillery, and other land-based items that were not even intended targets of the planned third wave.  
@MrNubbz said:
"So no air power in other words - DUMB. And still forged ahead"
  • To the extent that this criticism is even arguably valid, it is a criticism of the Captains and Admirals in charge locally.  It doesn't even rise to the level of the First Lord of the Admiralty (British equivalent of our Secretary of the Navy) let alone the Prime Minister (British equivalent of our President).  It is patently absurd to think that FDR or Churchill should have been making local tactical decisions about ships literally thousands of miles away.  
  • Even there, the criticism still isn't valid as applied to sending the ships to Singapore.  Singapore was NOT bombed by the Japanese in force until much later.  They couldn't do that in force until they had captured airbases in Malaya.  Repulse and POW were sent out from Singapore to interfere with the Japanese landings in Malaya.  THAT decision is the one that was questionable at the time and ludicrous in retrospect but the order to send Repulse and POW out of Singapore specifically to impede the Japanese invasion of Malaya was made IN Singapore, not at Downing Street.  
  • As stated previously, Repulse and POW were the first Capital Ships to EVER be sunk by air power alone while having freedom of movement.  The Italian and American Capital Ships sunk at Taranto and Pearl Harbor were stuck in their harbors and unable to move (takes time to build up steam).  It wasn't just Churchill nor even just the British who failed to grasp that this was a very real possibility.  A substantial portion of the world's admirals were still clinging to the idea of Battleship supremacy between December 7, 1941 (Pearl Harbor) and December December 10, 1941 (sinking of Repulse and POW).  What you are missing here is that, to the world's admirals and Naval Staffs the sinkings of Repulse and POW were far more shocking than the sinkings at Taranto and Pearl Harbor.  Unfortunately for the British the sinking of Repulse and POW *WAS* the lesson, not the result of a failure to learn from the earlier lessons (Taranto/PH).  
@MrNubbz said:
"And what happens when someone ASSUES?"
  • Again, not the Prime Minister's nor even the First Lord of the Admiralty's job to determine and dictate local tactical decisions.  If you want to say somebody was stupid and that stupidity caused the loss of Repulse and POW that is fine but your insistence of directing this criticism at Prime Minister Churchill is bizarre.  It would be like if you had a Cadillac with some defect and rather than blaming the dealer or the factory QC, or the factory line worker who screwed up, or the foreman of that unit, or the superintendent of that line, or the executive in charge of that factory, or the executive in charge of Cadillac, or the CEO of GM you instead decided to skip all of those people and assign blame to the Chairman of the Board of Directors of General Motors.  

@MrNubbz said:  
"The above statements are not hindsight that should be was an obvious blunder not factoring in the reasults(sic) of just 3 days earlier.  Japan had at least 18 carriers at that time and w/o knowing their location well that was just DUMB".  
  • Ah, this sentence would be a lot easier to address if it was actually a property constructed sentence but I *THINK* I can divine your meaning.  
  • Here you bring up the 3 days thing again as if it favors your apparent argument that Churchill was an idiot.  No, it doesn't.  It is apparent that Churchill himself issued NO orders regarding Repulse and POW between learning about PH and the loss of Repulse and POW so the short time undermines rather than supports your argument.  
  • In addition to that, the three days is misleading.  By the time the PH attack was learned about in London it would have been the next day at least and they probably didn't truly know the extent of the damage until AFTER Repulse and POW were lost so the idea that anyone in London let alone the PM should have gotten a report about PH, figured out that it meant that Capital Ships were vulnerable to air attacks even when possessing freedom of maneuver (not the case at PH), and then issued an order to not send Repulse and POW out is ludicrous.  However, even if we ignore ALL of that, it wasn't remotely within the province of the head of the British Government. That is a tactical level doctrine issue that at the highest should have been dealt with by the First Lord of the Admiralty.  
  • Japan NEVER had 18 "true" carriers.  At the time of PH they had six fleet carriers and on December 10, 1941 all six of them were on their way home from Hawaii and/or dealing with the American defenders on Wake Island.  I seriously doubt the assertion that Japan had "at least 18 carriers" but I absolutely KNOW that they only had six fleet carriers.  Other carriers that they did have were light carriers, escort carriers, and seaplane carriers and none of those are particularly relevant to the discussion.  Actually carriers are irrelevant to the whole question since Repulse and POW were NOT sunk by carrier-based aircraft.  They were sunk by land-based aircraft only AFTER they ventured into range of such planes and out of range* of their own air cover.  

*See discussion above with @Cincydawg about the range of their own air cover.  They were not technically out of range of aircraft based at Singapore, the problem was they were too far for the planes available at Singapore to maintain constant air cover over them.  Singapore could only provide air cover for a limited time (due to the fuel used to fly back and forth) so they only had air cover when called for which was inherently too late.  

 

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