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Topic: OT - Weird History

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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2198 on: July 22, 2023, 08:53:59 AM »
1940
British cipher experts at Bletchley Park break the Luftwaffe Enigma code.




kinda big deal
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2199 on: July 22, 2023, 10:20:15 AM »


1939.  The poor back then were really really poor.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2200 on: July 22, 2023, 02:39:42 PM »

Jeebis that's a worse idea than electric cars but unlike now they realized it
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2201 on: July 22, 2023, 03:30:49 PM »
[img width=367.99 height=500]https://i.imgur.com/plRRVwv.png[/img]

1939.  The poor back then were really really poor.
yup, fighting for food
doesn't seem to be that bad today
I hope it's not
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2202 on: July 23, 2023, 08:05:31 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

12th Street Riot Begins (1967)
In 1967, racial tensions spurred by high unemployment rates and poor housing conditions in Detroit exploded when police officers raided a speakeasy on the corner of 12th Street and Clairmount. The confrontation with the patrons developed into one of the deadliest and most destructive riots in modern US history, lasting five days and resulting in 43 deaths, 467 injuries, more than 7,200 arrests, and the destruction of more than 2,000 buildings.
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2203 on: July 23, 2023, 04:50:18 PM »

U.S. General Ulysses S. Grant, who commanded the Union armies to victory in the American Civil War and later served as the 18th president of the United States, died at the age of 63.

1995
Two astronomers, Alan Hale in New Mexico and Thomas Bopp in Arizona, almost simultaneously discover a comet.
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2204 on: July 24, 2023, 07:12:31 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 
Nixon and Khrushchev Engage in "Kitchen Debate" (1959)
The Kitchen Debate was an impromptu debate—conducted through interpreters—between US Vice President Richard Nixon and Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev at the opening of the American National Exhibition in Moscow in 1959. Centering on a discussion of the merits of capitalism versus communism, it took place in the kitchen of a model suburban American house designed to showcase American household appliances, which Nixon touted as examples of American innovation.
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2205 on: July 24, 2023, 07:17:39 AM »
TODAY'S BIRTHDAY: 

Calogero Vizzini (1877)
Vizzini, don of the village of Villalba, was one of the most influential Mafia bosses of Sicily following WWII. After the war, the staunch anti-communist was made mayor of Villalba by the Allied occupiers, a move that some might say adds credence to claims that Allied Forces enlisted direct Mafia support during their invasion of Sicily in 1943. Between 1949 and 1954, Vizzini reportedly ruled a lucrative black market operation,
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2206 on: July 25, 2023, 01:00:55 PM »

Left to Right for comparison
Massachusetts
Washington
Missouri
Yamato
Bismarck
Rodney
KGV
Hood
I've been meaning to come back to this to give context to @Cincydawg 's post and forgot about it so here it goes now.  

Massachusetts was a South Dakota Class Battleship of the USN.  The SoDak's were the second-to-last class of BB's completed by the United States.  The four ships (South Dakota BB57, Indiana BB58, Massachusetts BB59, and Alabama BB60) were built between 1939-1942 and when they were commissioned in 1942 (all four) they were the USN's most powerful BB's and some of the most powerful in the world.  They had 9x16" main guns and a plethora of smaller guns for close-in and AA defense.  Massachusetts and Alabama are preserved as museums in their namesake states.  SoDak and Indiana were scrapped.  

Washington was a North Carolina Class Battleship of the USN.  They were the immediate predecessors of the aforementioned SoDak class and thus were the third-to-last class of BB's completed by the United States.  The two ships (North Carolina BB55 and Washington BB56) were built between 1937-1941 with both being commissioned in the summer of 1941.  Thus, they were the USN's newest and most powerful battleships when the US entered WWII.  They had 9x16" main guns and a plethora of smaller guns for close-in and AA defense.  They were somewhat less well protected than the SoDak's.  North Carolina is preserved as a museum in it's namesake state, Washington was scrapped.  

Missouri was an Iowa Class Battleship of the USN.  They were the final class of BB's completed by the United States.  The four completed ships (Iowa BB61, New Jersey BB62, Missouri BB63, and Wisconsin BB64) were built between 1940-1944 and entered the fight toward the end of WWII.  Thus, they were the newest and most powerful battleships in the US Fleet.  They had 9x16" main guns and a plethora of smaller guns for close-in and AA defense.  Their primary improvement over the preceding SoDak class was that the Iowa's were faster.  The SoDak's and N. Carolina's could only obtain about 28 knots while the Iowa's could make 33 knots.  This 5kn improvement came at an IMMENSE cost because (engineers here can explain better than me) adding speed becomes exponentially more difficult so I think the Iowa's had to have something like 2.5x the power to go a mere 5kn faster.  In any case the increase was important for many reasons including:
  • If you encounter a more powerful ship such as Yamato (see below), it is REALLY nice to be able to outrun it.  
  • The USN Carriers could go 33 kn so the Iowa's were MUCH better escorts for them because they could keep up.  

All four are preserved as museums.  Iowa is in LA, New Jersey is across the river from Philly, Missouri is in Pearl Harbor (the USN put it there overlooking the USS Arizona Memorial which is a powerful statement if you think about it), and Wisconsin is Norfolk, VA.  

The original intention of the USN was to follow-up the Iowa class with a class of larger and more powerful but somewhat slower Battleships called the Montana Class.  Those ships were designed with 12x16" main guns, heavier armor than the Iowa's, and more secondary guns.  However, wartime experience showed that the age of the Battleship was effectively over and to the extent that BB's were needed at all, they were needed as carrier escorts which the slower Montana's couldn't do.  Thus, two of the Montana's were reordered as Iowa's and became the Illinois BB65 and Kentucky BB66.  These last two Iowa's were cancelled when it became apparent that they were surplus to wartime needs and eventually scrapped although one of them (I forget which) had it's bow removed and used to repair one of the completed ships.  

You may have noticed in the picture that all three USN Battleships appear to be the same width.  They are almost exactly the same width.  The width was determined by the locks of the Panama Canal.  All three pictured USN BB's are just narrow enough that they and two coats of wax can fit through the Panama Canal.  

Yamato was a Yamato Class Battleship of the IJN (Imperial Japanese Navy).  The Yamato's were the largest class of BB's ever completed.  The two ships (Yamato and Mushashi, a third was converted to an aircraft carrier part way through construction) were built in the run-up to and early part of WWII and they were the most powerful BB's in the IJN and arguably the world.  (Iowa's have an argument because while they had smaller guns and thinner armor their guns and armor were better pound-for-pound so it is a hotly debated topic).  They had 9x18.1" main guns and a plethora of smaller guns for close-in and AA defense.  


Bismark was a Bismark Class Battleship of the KM (Kriegsmarine, sp?).  The Bismarks were the largest class of BB's ever completed by a European power.  The two ships (Bismark and Tirpitz) were built by Nazi Germany in the run-up to WWII.  Bismark famously sank the Hood (see below) and was in turn sunk by nearly the entire British Fleet including one of the Nelrods and one of the KGV's (see below).  They had 8x15" guns and could obtain about 30kn.  Tirpitz was tucked away in a Norwegian Fjord where it effectively tied up a half-dozen British and US Battleships by just being a "Fleet in being" that the RN and USN were compelled to remain prepared to fight.  Eventually the British managed to sink it with aerial bombs and it's hulk has provided a massive amount of low background steel for various applications in which background radiation is a problem.  Bismark was sunk in the North Atlantic while unsuccessfully trying to get close enough to occupied France to acquire German air cover after the Battle of the Denmark Straight in which she had sunk the Hood.  

Rodney was a Nelson Class Battleship of the RN.  The Nelson's were the only class of British BB's completed between the pre-WWI designed Revenge Class and the immediate run-up to WWII.  They were built under the restrictions of the Washington Naval Treaty and were odd ships due to measures taken to comply.  They had 9x16" guns but could only obtain 23 kn because speed was severely limited by the necessity to keep the powerplant light enough that the ship could meet the treaty limit.  The immediately visible unusual feature is that the three main turrets are all located forward of the bridge.  This was done to minimize the size (and thus weight) of the armored citadel.  

King George the Fifth (KGV) was a KGV Class Battleship of the RN.  The KGV's were the last class of British BB's completed before the end of WWII (the completed one additional post-war BB).  They were built partially under the restrictions of the treaty system but that system was collapsing as they were being built.  The five ships (KGV, Prince of Wales (POW), Duke of York (DOY), Anson, and Howe) were built between 1936-1942 and were the most modern BB's in the RN during WWII.  They had 10x14" main guns and smaller arms and could obtain 28kn.  They are roughly equivalent to the US SoDak Class.  

Hood has a really interesting story.  It was laid down during WWI and completed just before the treaty system went into effect.  Consequently, it was the most powerful warship in the world for around 20 years.  During this time it gained a rather revered/mythic status in Britain so it's loss (to Bismark) early in WWII was particularly troubling to the RN and the British in general.  It had 8x15" main guns and could obtain 32 kn.  At construction it was designated a BattleCruiser but by WWII standards it was probably more proper to call it a fast Battleship (like the Iowa's).  It was sunk by a catastrophic magazine explosion* after taking hits from Bismark early in WWII.  *Catastrophic Magazine Explosion is redundant.  All Magazine Explosions are by nature catastrophic.  Arizona suffered a similar fate at Pearl Harbor and about half of US deaths at Pear Harbor occurred when Arizona blew up.  similarly, there were only three survivors out of Hood's crew of nearly 1,500.  

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2207 on: July 25, 2023, 01:20:30 PM »
These last two Iowa's were cancelled when it became apparent that they were surplus to wartime needs and eventually scrapped although one of them (I forget which) had it's bow removed and used to repair one of the completed ships. 
The Kentucky's bow was removed to repair the Wisconsin after a collision with another ship. 

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2208 on: July 25, 2023, 01:26:29 PM »
Regarding the American BB's. The South Dakota class of BB had 9-16 inch main guns. They were .45 caliber guns known as Mark 6 guns. The Iowa class BB's, had 9-16 inch Mark 7 50 caliber guns which were slightly more powerful and had a greater range than the Mark 6 guns. 

Either way, they both had awesome firepower. 

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2209 on: July 25, 2023, 03:58:04 PM »
Regarding the American BB's. The South Dakota class of BB had 9-16 inch main guns. They were .45 caliber guns known as Mark 6 guns. The Iowa class BB's, had 9-16 inch Mark 7 50 caliber guns which were slightly more powerful and had a greater range than the Mark 6 guns.

Either way, they both had awesome firepower.
In the actual event it hardly mattered because the marginally longer range of the Iowa's Mark 7 guns paled in comparison to the vastly longer range of carrier based aircraft which had rendered Battleships more-or-less obsolete by the time the Iowa's were completed.

They were great at shore bombardment but range is rarely an issue in that capacity and for that matter the much older 14" and 12" armed ships were just about as effective anyway.

In my earlier post I forgot to include the ultimate fates of the Yamato class ships.

Mushashi went first. It was part of the Japanese Center Force for what became the Battle of Leyte Gulf during the US invasion of the Philippines along with Yamato. The USN discovered this powerful surface force and dispatched a staggering quantity of aircraft to deal with it before it got close enough to do any damage. Musashi absorbed a tremendous amount of firepower before succumbing after taking an estimated 17 bombs and 19 torpedoes.

A month later the intended third Yamato Class ship, Shinano, which had been converted to an aircraft carrier during construction was ordered to be moved from Tokyo Bay where construction was still underway to the more protected  Japanese Inland Sea due to Shinano having been spotted by US reconnaissance flights. Unfortunately for Shinano and her crew, this move was ordered over the protest of her captain due to the fact that the ship was incomplete and watertight integrity of her doors and compartments had not been tested.

Shinano barely made it out of sight of Tokyo Bay before the USN submarine Archerfish got her with four torpedoes. She sank a few hours later.

Yamato herself lasted a bit longer. She survived almost to the end of the war before being sent on a suicide mission in a last ditch effort to defend Okinawa. She was ordered to beach herself on the island as an unsinkable gun battery. She never even got close. As with her sister, the USN sent in an overwhelming force of aircraft and Yamato sank after taking at least 11 torpedoes and six bombs.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2210 on: July 25, 2023, 06:01:16 PM »
One way to make a ship faster is to make it longer but no wider.  Hence, the Iowas were 861 feetin length vs about 713, and they had 212,000 shaft hp vs about 120,000.

These ships of course didn't cruise at 33 knots, but they would often approach that speed for carrier flight operations, and of course in combat.  It helps to launch planes with 30+ knots of headwind.  A WW 2 naval fighter might need 75 knots to become airborne so you only need 45 knots provided by the plane.  The same is true for landing, it lowers you ground speed.


betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #2211 on: July 25, 2023, 06:29:53 PM »
Their primary improvement over the preceding SoDak class was that the Iowa's were faster.  The SoDak's and N. Carolina's could only obtain about 28 knots while the Iowa's could make 33 knots.  This 5kn improvement came at an IMMENSE cost because (engineers here can explain better than me) adding speed becomes exponentially more difficult so I think the Iowa's had to have something like 2.5x the power to go a mere 5kn faster.  

Yes. Drag is generally an exponential. In aerodynamic drag, the force increases with the square of velocity. Meaning to add 2 mph of top speed doesn't take twice as much power as to add 1 mph, it takes MORE than twice as much. 

It's why coefficient of drag is so important for fuel economy, and it's also why motorcycles are ridiculously "fast" when it comes to acceleration but have woeful top speeds compared to many cars. A motorcycle is horrible aerodynamically, so even if it accelerates quickly due to high power-to-weight ratio, its top speed will be FAR less than you typically expect. Because the coefficient of drag is terrible. 

I don't know the equations for aquatic drag, but in general aquatic drag is MUCH more severe than aerodynamic, so assuming it also follows an exponential relationship, going from 28 knots to 33 knots is a massive increase. 

 

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