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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1862 on: May 22, 2023, 02:43:08 PM »
Voltaire was not his real name: Voltaire was born François-Marie Arouet. He later adopted the pen name "Voltaire" in 1718, when he was in his mid-twenties. He was a prolific writer and produced over 20,000 letters and over 2,000 books and pamphlets during his lifetime. His works ranged from plays and poetry to philosophy, history and science.
Voltaire was exiled from France twice during his lifetime. The first time was in 1716 when he was sent to the Bastille prison for insulting a nobleman. The second time was in 1726, when he was forced to leave France due to his satirical writings. He championed religious tolerance and advocated for the separation of church and state. He was critical of religious dogma and superstition and believed in the power of reason and science.
He popularized the phrase, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it": Although often attributed to Voltaire himself, this phrase was  coined by Evelyn Beatrice, a biographer of Voltaire, in her book "The Friends of Voltaire." The quote reflects Voltaire's belief in the importance of freedom of speech and expression.


MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1863 on: May 23, 2023, 06:31:03 AM »
Voltaire was exiled from France twice during his lifetime. The first time was in 1716 when he was sent to the Bastille prison for insulting a nobleman. The second time was in 1726, when he was forced to leave France due to his satirical writings. He championed religious tolerance and advocated for the separation of church and state. He was critical of religious dogma and superstition and believed in the power of reason and science.
He popularized the phrase, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it": Although often attributed to Voltaire himself, this phrase was  coined by Evelyn Beatrice, a biographer of Voltaire, in her book "The Friends of Voltaire." The quote reflects Voltaire's belief in the importance of freedom of speech and expression.
He apparently was ahead of his time and could teach us today a thing or two. Voltaire gets a Yuengling
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1864 on: May 23, 2023, 11:21:27 AM »

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1865 on: May 23, 2023, 12:56:52 PM »
The pacemaker, ultrasound, safety match, astronomical lens, marine propeller, the refrigerator, and computer mouse are all famous items that were invented in Sweden or by Swedes who weren’t living in Sweden.
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1866 on: May 23, 2023, 01:02:25 PM »
Forgetting something there FF - try to keep up
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1867 on: May 23, 2023, 02:48:43 PM »

utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1868 on: May 23, 2023, 03:13:10 PM »


I grew up on these on Friday nights, when my parents were going out.  Salisbury Steak was definitely my favorite.

We also mixed in some of these:



And of course these:



FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1869 on: May 23, 2023, 04:20:36 PM »
yup, me too

parents didn't take kids "out"
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1870 on: May 23, 2023, 05:55:46 PM »

Can't tell you how many times I came home after working 2nd shift close the pubs then pop one of those in the oven at 3am. Wake up 3 hrs later smoke like london fog. Salsbury Steak was thick as Jerky,tater tots the size of peas,the peas the size of BBs. When I rented a house with some friends one of the guys came home blottoed and did the same thing. Other buddy and his fiance' woke up hrs later and the guy's sawing logs half hanging off the couch and they started laughing. Well the next day we took the Swanson/Banquet dinner after it cooled down and shellaced it and hung it in the living room with the other priceless art
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1871 on: May 24, 2023, 08:13:50 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 
Peter Minuit Buys Manhattan (1626)
Peter Minuit was the director-general of the Dutch colony of New Netherland who is credited with the purchase of the island of Manhattan in 1626. According to legend, he persuaded the natives—perhaps a Metoac band of Lenape known as the Canarsee, who were actually native to what is now Brooklyn—to "sell" the island for a handful of trade goods worth approximately 60 guilders.
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1872 on: May 24, 2023, 12:11:52 PM »
More "counter-narrative" history, Henry VIII:

I think the narrative is that Henry was basically just a dirty old man who repeatedly came up with excuses to get rid of his wives solely in pursuit of younger women.  Basically he caused a whole lot of mayhem just so that he could get laid.  

The more I've read about him and the time, the less true I've found that to be.  

First off, there is some very important background that seems to be overlooked by nearly everyone:
Henry VIII's father, Henry VII, won the throne on the battlefield.  Henry VII's victory at the Battle of Bosworth Field and the death of Richard III at that battle effectively ended the Wars of the Roses which had raged in England for more than thirty years.  Henry VII also became the last English King to win his throne on the field of battle.  

The Battle of Bosworth Field occurred in 1487 and Henry VIII was born four years later, in 1491.  Thus, Henry VIII had no personal recollection of the Wars of the Roses but in his youth nearly everyone he looked up to would have been veterans or victims (or both) of the conflict.  A disputed succession was part of the underlying cause of the Wars of the Roses and at the time the concept of Female succession to the throne was rather dubious.  Given that vast numbers of high ranking noblemen and royals were killed in the Wars of the Roses, Henry VIII was justified in seeing it as his duty to provide his Kingdom with an undisputed Heir.  

Second, I want to delve into Henry's upbringing.  Many people do not realize this, but Henry was not originally destined to be a King.  He was actually Henry VII's third child and second son.  Henry VII's first child was a son named Arthur who WAS intended to be the next King.  Arthur was raised, trained, and educated in those things thought necessary for a future King.  Henry, being a third child and second son, was not.  Instead, Henry VII's intention was for Henry to go into the Priesthood and become a Bishop or Cardinal thus providing a valuable ally within the church for Arthur, the future King.  Henry was thus educated with this in mind.  His training was not just in religion but also in the complexities of Church Law so when he later challenged the Pope on issues relating to his marriage to Catherine he was not an uneducated person.  Henry KNEW church law very well and, as you'll see, his position was more than sound on the basis of existing Church Law.  

Third, Henry's first (and by far longest) marriage to Catherine of Aragon appears to have been at least relatively happy for quite some time.  Henry and Catherine were married on June 11, 1509 when Catherine (born Dec 16, 1485) was 23 and Henry (born June 28, 1491) was 17.  Not only was Catherine six year older than Henry, she had also been previously married . . . to Henry's older brother Arthur.  

Catherine's first marriage:
Pre-reformation England was basically always in conflict with France.  France and England sought allies.  France's traditional ally was Scotland and England's traditional ally was Spain.  In both cases this served to threaten their rival's opposite flank.  Ie, England's position against France to their South was weakened by the need to defend their North against Scotland and France's position against England to their North was weakened by the need to defend their South against Spain.  

Henry VII sought a marriage for his son and Heir to a Spanish princess to reinforce this traditional alliance.  Thus, a marriage between Henry VII's son Arthur and Catherine who was the daughter of Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile.  Ferdinand and Isabella ruled as co-monarchs as each was a reigning monarch in their own right.  Their marriage served the purpose of uniting Spain.  

Catherine and Arthur were married by proxy (due to Henry's youth) in 1499 and first met on November 4, 1501 when Arthur (born September 20, 1486) and Catherine (born December 16, 1485) were both 15.  Both became ill in March, 1502 and though Catherine recovered, Arthur died on April 2, 1502.  

Arthur's marriage to Catherine had served two purposes important to his (and young Henry's) father.  First, Catherine had come with a substantial dowry.  The recently united Spain had money and the English King was more-or-less broke after 30-odd years of civil war.  Apparently the dowry would have to be returned if Catherine was returned and Henry VII wanted to avoid that.  Additionally, Henry VII's alliance with Spain was important to England as they were generally always in conflict with France.  Thus, things started to get weird:

When Arthur died Catherine was 16.  The new Heir apparent Henry was just 10.  As such, Henry was not yet old enough to marry but Henry VII began almost immediately to work towards an eventual marriage between his widowed daughter-in-law and his oldest remaining son.  There were, however, some issues.  Under Cannon Law (basically Papal interpretations of biblical passages) a man generally could not marry his brother's widow.  This would have prevented a marriage between Henry and Catherine but there were exceptions.  The exception that Henry VII chose to pursue was to claim that Catherine and Arthur's marriage had never been consummated.  

IMHO, this claim is laughable on it's face.  Arthur and Catherine were both 15 when they were married and literally their JOB was to produce an heir to the English throne.  The idea that two 15 year olds who were supposed to make babies, chose not to have sex for no apparent reason and in violation of their royal duty to produce an heir is frankly silly.  Nonetheless, Henry VII sent a representative to the Pope who chose to accept this nonsense and authorize an eventual marriage between Catherine and her deceased husband's younger brother.  

Based on this "exception" blessed by the Pope, Catherine was engaged to the heir to the English throne for a second time and she married Henry VIII in 1509 when she was 23 and he was 17.  Henry and Catherine were then apparently relatively happily for about 20 years.  They had six children but, unfortunately, only one survived beyond infancy and also unfortunately given the lack of precedent for female succession to the throne in England at the time, the lone survivor was a girl.  The children were:

  • 1/31/1510: Daughter, miscarriage
  • 1/1511:  Son named Henry, died suddenly on 2/22/1511
  • 9/17/1513:  Son who was either stillborn or died within a few hours, records conflict on this.  
  • Fall, 1514:  Records do not even indicate whether this was a boy or a girl but in either case it was another miscarriage.  
  • 2/18/1516:  Daughter, Mary, the future Bloody Mary, Queen of England for a while, died in 1558.  
  • 11/10/1518:  Son, stillborn.  

Henry VII had died in 1509, shortly before Henry and Catherine's marriage so they were married then crowned at about the same time.  Catherine had been born in 1485 so at the time of the last miscarriage listed above she was about 33 and 10 years later she still hadn't produced a male heir and she was over 40 and generally believed to be no longer fertile.  

Henry had been born in 1491 so by 1531 he was no longer the dashing young prince of his youth but an aging (especially by contemporary standards) monarch with no clear heir.  This was a MAJOR concern for Henry who, as I mentioned above, was well versed in the horrors of a 30-year civil war set off by a disputed succession immediately prior to his father's ascension.  

Thus, by the mid 1520's Henry began casting about for a solution.  Now remember that Henry was a religious scholar.  Well, he determined that his marriage with Catherine was childless (he very nearly considered Mary to be a non-entitiy at least as far as succession was concerned) because it was contrary to the Bible, specifically Leviticus 20:21 "If a man marries his brother's wife, it is an act of impurity; he has dishonored his brother.  They will be childless."  To Henry, this pretty clearly proscribed his marriage to Catherine.  This was important to Henry because divorce simply wasn't an option in those days.  He could only get out of the marriage to Catherine if he could have the whole thing "annulled" which legally means that it never was as opposed to a divorce which ends a marriage that is still acknowledged to have previously existed.  

The problem was that, at the time, the Pope was more-or-less a prisoner of Catherine's nephew (long story, Hapsburgs, Central European wars, etc) and the Pope was therefore not in a position to grant Henry the annulment that he sought even if he wanted to.  Thus, the Pope declined to grant the annulment and Henry's response was to declare an end to Papal supremacy and declare himself (as monarch) supreme in ecclesiastical matters within his realm.  

One thing that fascinates me and it deserves it's own post so I will not delve deeply into it here is that the people of England generally went along with Henry even under severe sanction from the Pope.  

In any case, Henry's marriage to Catherine was declared illegitimate and Henry married Anne Boleyn.  She was the second of Henry's six wives who were, as the saying goes:
  • annulled - Catherine of Aragon annulled due to prior marriage to Henry's brother.  Surviving child was the future Bloody Mary.  
  • beheaded - Anne Boleyn beheaded based on a rather dubious conviction for treasonous adultery and incest.  Surviving child was the future Queen Elizabeth.  
  • died - Jane Seymour died due to an infection developed after childbirth.  Surviving child was the future Edward VI.  
  • annulled - Anne of Cleves annulled due to a combination of her prior betrothal and their claim that the marriage had not been consummated.  
  • beheaded - Catherine Howard executed due to an affair that was both treasonous and adulterous.  In this case the adultery was probably true unlike the likely fabricated case against Anne.  
  • survived - Catherine Parr, Henry's sixth and last wife survived him.  
Thus, at the time of Henry's death on January 8, 1547 at the age of 55 he had three surviving children each of whom would eventually attain the English throne:
  • 1547-1553 - Edward VI was Henry's son by Jane Seymour (wife #3).  He was born October 12, 1537 so he was only nine when his father died and he became King although with a regent in place to manage the Kingdom until Edward reached an appropriate age.  That never happened as Edward died July 6, 1553 at the age of 15.  
  • 1553-1558 Mary was Henry's daughter by Catherine of Aragon (wife #1).  She was born February 18, 1516 so she was 30 when her father died and 37 by the time her half-brother Edward died and she took the throne in 1553.  She is known to history as "Bloody Mary" largely because, as the Roman Catholic daughter of a Spanish Princess she endeavored to return her realm to her faith.  Suffice to say that this did NOT go well and she earned her epithet through many executions of religious dissenters to her policies (mostly by burning at the stake).  She married a Roman Catholic Hapsburg Price to whom she was related but died childless on November 17, 1558.  
  • 1558-1603 Elizabeth was Henry's daughter by Anne Boleyn (wife #2).  She was born September 7, 1533 so she was 13 when her father died, 19 when her half-brother died, and 25 when her half-sister died.  Her reign lasted nearly 45 years.  


My point isn't so much that Henry was a good or blameless guy.  He certainly did some bad things and the trumped up charges/execution of Anne Boleyn is terrible (although that may have been more political intrigue amongst Henry's underlings than his own doing).  My point is simply that I think Henry gets an unfairly bad reputation because most people ignore the fact that Henry had very good reasons to want to leave an undisputed heir.  Sure, he also had less honorable reasons but the good reasons shouldn't be altogether ignored.  

betarhoalphadelta

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1873 on: May 24, 2023, 12:27:30 PM »
More "counter-narrative" history, Henry VIII:
Thanks for this, Medina. I'm seeing the production of Six next month, and this is good background that I didn't otherwise know.

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1874 on: May 24, 2023, 12:59:56 PM »
I hope Medina was able to copy & paste at least some of that.
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utee94

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1875 on: May 24, 2023, 03:27:14 PM »
WOW longcat is long

 

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