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Topic: OT - Weird History

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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1806 on: May 10, 2023, 07:39:50 AM »
Japan's whole strategic calculus was unbelievably unrealistic.
They were between a hard rock and a worst place prewar after we cut their steel and petroleum supplies.  Their generals in China would not have complied with any orders from Tokyo to pull back or "be nice".  They really were facing a very dire situation without gaining oil supplies (SE Asia).  And what lay between them and Indonesia/Borneo?

The PI.  

They figured/hoped that a sharp early serious reverse inflicted on the US would buy time, and perhaps lead to negotiations somehow.  This would probably mean US withdrawal from the PI so Japan could get oil from SE Asia and be "independent".  Yamamoto of course counciled against this, but they were in a bind.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1807 on: May 10, 2023, 07:58:27 AM »
[img width=274.381 height=361]https://i.imgur.com/f2iOdFe.jpg[/img]
I haven't seen the North Carolina. I'd like to get to Wilmington at some point.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1808 on: May 10, 2023, 08:01:58 AM »
I've toured it twice, a while back.  Obviously it's very similar to the South Dakota class, and you would look hard to distinguish it from the Iowa class really.  I didn't get why we had two classes at the same time so similar, I think it related to the naval treaty, but don't remember offhand.

NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1809 on: May 10, 2023, 08:37:35 AM »
I've toured it twice, a while back.  Obviously it's very similar to the South Dakota class, and you would look hard to distinguish it from the Iowa class really.  I didn't get why we had two classes at the same time so similar, I think it related to the naval treaty, but don't remember offhand.
The initial design for the NC was for her main battery of guns to be 14 inch. to conform to the Second London Naval Treaty. However, there was a clause in the treaty that if any member nation refused to sign the treaty, they could increase the size of the guns. So they went with the 16 in /45 caliber Mark 6 guns, which are similar to the 16 in /50 caliber Mark 7 guns. 

Also, you are correct, the NC class was designed and limited due to the Second London Naval Treaty. The Iowa class was designed after the US found a way out of the treaty thus giving the Iowa class a few advantages, mainly speed. The Iowa's were the fastest battleships every built and were able to keep up with the carriers at top speed, something the prior battleships could not do.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1810 on: May 10, 2023, 08:56:13 AM »
I was speaking of the very similar classes of the North Carolina class (of which two were built) and the South Dakota class.

A number of deficiencies in the preceding North Carolinas were to be fixed in the South Dakotas; these included insufficient underwater protection and turbine engines not of the most recent technology. The North Carolinas also did not have sufficient space to act as fleet flagships, so the lead ship of the new class was designed with an extra deck on the conning tower specifically for this purpose, although the increase in space and weight from this necessitated removal of two twin 5-inch dual-purpose (DP) gun mounts.[3]

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1811 on: May 10, 2023, 10:50:01 AM »
Sumerians Looked to the Heavens as They Invented the System of Time… And We Still Use it Today. One might find it curious that we divide the hours into 60 minutes and the days into 24 hours - why not a multiple of 10 or 12? Put quite simply, the answer is because the inventors of time did not operate on a decimal (base-10) or duodecimal (base-12) system but a sexagesimal (base-60) system. For the ancient Sumerian innovators who first divided the movements of the heavens into countable intervals, 60 was the perfect number. The number 60 can be divided by 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 10, 12, 15, 20, and 30 equal parts. Moreover, ancient astronomers believed there were 360 days in a year, a number which 60 fits neatly into six times. The Sumerian Empire did not last. However, for more than 5,000 years the world has remained committed to their delineation of time.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1812 on: May 10, 2023, 11:49:48 AM »
I've toured it twice, a while back.  Obviously it's very similar to the South Dakota class, and you would look hard to distinguish it from the Iowa class really.  I didn't get why we had two classes at the same time so similar, I think it related to the naval treaty, but don't remember offhand.
It did. In accordance with the Treaty System based on the Washington (1922), London (1930), and Second London (1936) Naval Treaties there was a prolonged global pause in new Battleship and Battlecruiser construction.

Here are the final pre-pause Battleships/Battlecruisers for the US, Britain, and Japan:
United States:
The last pre-treaty Battleships of the USN were the Colorado Class ships. Four were planned and all four were launched before the treaty but one had to be scrapped to comply. The USN also had to convert two Lexington Class Battlecruisers then under construction into what became the Lexington Class Carriers Lexington and Saratoga. The Colorados had eight 16" guns, weighed ~32k tons, and had a top speed of 21kn. The Colorados were built 1917-1923.




Britain:
The last pre-treaty Battlecruiser of the RN was the Hood. Hood was originally to be one of four Admiral Class Battlecruisers but the other three were canceled due to lessons learned at Jutland and their replacements were never constructed due to the treaties. Hood had eight 15" guns, weighed ~45k tons, and had a top speed of 32kn. Hood was built 1916-1920.

The "Nelrods", Nelson and Rodney of the Nelson Class were the last pre-treaty Battleships of the RN. They had nine 16" guns (in an unusual all-forward layout), weighed 33k tons, and had a top speed of 23kn. The Nelrods were built 1922-1927.

Japan:
The last pre-treaty Battlecruisers of the IJN were the four ships of the Kongo Class. They had eight 14" guns, weighed ~27k tons, and had a top speed of 27.5kn. They were built 1911-1915.

The last pre-treaty Battleships of the IJN were the two ships of the Nagato Class. They had eight 16.1" guns, weighed ~33k tons, and had a top speed of 26.5kn. They were built 1911-1915.

Due to the treaties, no new Battleships or Battlecruisers were completed until the late 1930's in the run up to WWII. Hood was the largest warship in the world for 20 years.

After the pause the US built ten modern Battleships:
  • 2 North Carolinas that more-or-less complied with the treaties (post-escalator clause)
  • 4 South Dakotas that more-or-less complied with the treaties (post-escalator clause)
  • 4 Iowas that were not limited by the treaties. Two more Iowas were nearly completed but never finished due to being surplus to late-war and postwar needs.
Britain built six:
  • 5 KGV's that more-or-less complied with the treaties. One (PoW) was lost.
  • 1 Vanguard completed after the war.
Japan built two:
  • 2 Yamatos that were not limited by treaties. Both were lost and a third was completed as an aircraft carrier and also lost. The two completed as Battleships were the largest Battleships ever built and the aircraft carrier was the largest aircraft carrier ever built until the US built supercarriers much later.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1813 on: May 10, 2023, 11:53:45 AM »
I didn't recall that the two additional Iowas were nearly completed.  I think the Kentucky was laid down and construction had been halted maybe halfway, and the sixth might have been laid down and never really started beyond that.


NorthernOhioBuckeye

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1814 on: May 10, 2023, 12:10:54 PM »
I didn't recall that the two additional Iowas were nearly completed.  I think the Kentucky was laid down and construction had been halted maybe halfway, and the sixth might have been laid down and never really started beyond that.


I think you are correct and that the sixth was never started. However, the bow of the Kentucky was affixed to the Wisconsin after the Wisconsin had a ship to ship collision during sea trials, that severely damaged her bow. They brought it back into the Newport News ship yards, removed the newly completed bow from the Kentucky and replaced the damaged bow of the Wisconsin.

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1815 on: May 10, 2023, 12:27:37 PM »
I think you are correct and that the sixth was never started. However, the bow of the Kentucky was affixed to the Wisconsin after the Wisconsin had a ship to ship collision during sea trials, that severely damaged her bow. They brought it back into the Newport News ship yards, removed the newly completed bow from the Kentucky and replaced the damaged bow of the Wisconsin.
They were both laid down in 1942 and would have been completed during the war but both were deprioritzed during the war especially after Midway due to needs for aircraft carriers, anti-submarine craft, and landing ships being more pressing.

Illinois was canceled at the time of the Japanese surrender and never launched but it was maintained for parts until the late 1950's.

Kentucky was further along and work on her continued, albeit at a glacially slow pace while various conversion proposals were contemplated until finally stopped in 1950. Also in 1950, Kentucky was informally launched due to her drydock being needed to repair Missouri after that ship ran aground.

Kentucky's bow, as you mentioned, was used to replace Wisconsin's bow after the collision but Kentucky's bow was not "newly completed", it had been in place for years.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1816 on: May 10, 2023, 12:33:47 PM »


The USS Illinois just before being cancelled.  

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1817 on: May 10, 2023, 12:35:21 PM »
Kentucky's construction was plagued by suspensions. Her keel was laid down at the Norfolk Navy YardPortsmouth, Virginia, on 7 March 1942.[5] However, work on the ship was suspended in June that year, and Kentucky's bottom structure was launched to make room for LST construction on 10 June.[5][17][18] Work on the ship resumed on 6 December 1944, when the keel structure was moved to Dry Dock 8. Work on the battleship proceeded at a slow pace, and her completion was projected for the third quarter of 1946. In December 1945 it was recommended that Kentucky be completed as an anti-aircraft battleship, and work on the ship was suspended in August 1946 while this was considered. Construction resumed again on 17 August 1948 without any decision having been made on her final design.[5] Work on Kentucky continued until 20 January 1950, when it was decided to halt work on the ship.[19] Following this, she was floated out of her drydock to clear a space for repairs to sister ship Missouri, which had run aground en route from Hampton Roads.[20][21]


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1818 on: May 10, 2023, 12:37:09 PM »
German aircraft carrier Graf Zeppelin - Wikipedia

Speaking of major ships not completed, what a waste of resources this one was.   And of course the Japanese effort to convert a Yamato class to a carrier was less than successful as well (Shinano).

DVIDS - News - The Yokosuka-built Aircraft Carrier Shinano (dvidshub.net)

On Nov. 19, 1944, Shinano was officially commissioned, and on Nov. 28 departed for Kure, Yamaguchi prefecture, where the remainder of the ship-fitting work would take place. Shinano, with escort ships, had only been cruising four hours before they were caught on radar by the Balao-class submarine USS Archerfish (SS 311) and followed through the waters near Tokyo Bay.
Shinano’s escorts included the ships Isokaze, Yukikaze and Hamakaze, which were caught on Archerfish’s radar and followed by the submarine on a parallel course.
Believing that Archerfish was a decoy to lure Shinano into a convoy attack, Capt. Toshio Abe, commanding officer of Shinano, ordered that the ships outrun it by using a zigzag maneuver. However, by midnight, the ships were forced to reduce the speed to prevent the Shinano’s propeller shaft’s bearing from overheating.
Archerfish grabbed the opportunity and submerged in preparation for an attack. Shinano tried to turn southwest but ended up heading straight toward the submarine. Within a matter of minutes, the ship turned south, inadvertently exposing its side, offering an ideal firing situation for the submarine to attack.
At 3:15 a.m. Nov. 29, 1944, Archerfish fired six torpedoes, striking Shinano.
According to Hosokawa, Shinano was hit in the shaft-room of the #3 Engine Room on the starboard side. Upon impact, several thousand rivets on the bulkhead, especially between the shaft room and the engine room, came loose all at once. For IJN ships, rivets were used throughout the hull unlike modernized vessels, which are largely built by welding. The damage got worse with increasing water pressure and was beyond the crews’ ability to correct. Lifeboats and buoys were not available for the crew aboard Shinano, as they believed that, “escape from the ship equals timidity,” recalls Hosokawa.
Shinano was sunk on its maiden voyage 160 nautical miles southwest of Tokyo Bay, going down in history as the largest warship annihilated by any combatant submarine during World War II.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 01:36:04 PM by Cincydawg »

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1819 on: May 10, 2023, 02:22:08 PM »
They were between a hard rock and a worst place prewar after we cut their steel and petroleum supplies.  Their generals in China would not have complied with any orders from Tokyo to pull back or "be nice".  They really were facing a very dire situation without gaining oil supplies (SE Asia).  And what lay between them and Indonesia/Borneo?

The PI. 

They figured/hoped that a sharp early serious reverse inflicted on the US would buy time, and perhaps lead to negotiations somehow.  This would probably mean US withdrawal from the PI so Japan could get oil from SE Asia and be "independent".  Yamamoto of course counciled against this, but they were in a bind.
A few things to add:
First, the US petroleum situation in WWII was unbelievably strong. In 1940 the US alone produced almost 2/3 of total global oil production.

Second, I think everyone with even a passing knowledge of the Pacific War knows that Yamamoto was against it. His statement that "In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain, I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success." Was remarkably prescient. The Japanese lost four of their six fleet carriers at Midway almost exactly six months after Pearl Harbor.

What I didn't learn until much more recently was that Yamamoto was not at all alone in his view. Nearly the entire hierarchy of the IJN could see that Japan, with an economy an order of magnitude smaller than the US couldn't prevail. I had previously been under the impression that Yamamoto's was a lone voice in dissent.

In fact, most of the naval hierarchy believed that the war would be a disaster for Japan. It was the Imperial Japanese Army that seemed to think they could take on the whole world and somehow win.

What is really ironic about this is that in 1941 the IJN was absolutely a first rate Navy, arguably superior to the RN and USN in doctrine, equipment (the brits were still using biplanes on their carriers and the Brewster Buffalo was no match for the Zero), and training. Conversely, the IJA was laughable by comparison. They got their butts kicked by the pre-war Soviet Army in the late 1930's, learned nothing from it, and still thought they could take on the British, French, Dutch, and Americans all at the same time.

 

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