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Topic: OT - Weird History

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1792 on: May 08, 2023, 11:42:44 AM »
I disagree with this statement

Just look at what happened to Burnsides 6 divisions at Fredericksburg when they charged over open ground to a well fortified Confederate position

The result was mass slaughter

Lee should have learned from this cause his generals sure did
I didn't really mean it as opposed to attacking to the right (I'll come back to that).

I was making a larger, strategic point: Attacking as opposed to declaring victory and going home, absolutely made strategic sense due to the factors that I outlined above.

Attacking to the right vs center:
This is a tactical rather than a strategic decision.

Obviously, we benefit from 20/20 hindsight. We KNOW that attacking the Union center will be a failure because we've been reading about Pickett's Charge since we could read.

The attack to the right is preferable in the same way that fans think that switching to the backup QB would have been preferable after a loss. They KNOW that the starter lost so they have no risk in retroactively switching to the backup.

Similarly, we KNOW that Pickett's Charge was a failure so, from our perspective, there is no risk is changing to an attack on the right.

Pickett's Charge didn't work but there is no guarantee that an attack on the right would have worked. Additionally, Lee was facing South so his right was West, away from Meade's supply lines back to the East Coast generally and Baltimore/Washington specifically. Even a successful attack on Lee's right wouldn't necessarily have been catastrophic for Meade.

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1793 on: May 08, 2023, 12:08:26 PM »
It was simply the same as Burnsides attacks on Marye's Heights at Fredricksburg  7 months earlier only the Rebs decided to play stoopid on Cemetery Ridge
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longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1794 on: May 08, 2023, 12:26:18 PM »
It was simply the same as Burnsides attacks on Marye's Heights at Fredricksburg  7 months earlier only the Rebs decided to play stoopid on Cemetery Ridge
I mentioned this in an earlier post

To me the decision should have been simple

Attacking left had not yielded good results for the last 2 days and Fredericksburg demonstrated a frontal attack had little chance of success

The only attacking option that was viable was flanking to the right

As far as the direction a right attack would be

By the time Picketts charge occured the bulk of Lees army was west of Gettysburg which means going right would have been in the general direction of Washington DC

This would have forced the north to move to its left and give up the reinforced ground
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1795 on: May 08, 2023, 12:52:48 PM »
That's what Longstreet wanted to do and he was villified later for disagreeing with Marse Robert
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longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1796 on: May 08, 2023, 12:59:45 PM »
That's what Longstreet wanted to do and he was villified later for disagreeing with Marse Robert
Yep and Hood also was a big fan of flanking right
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1797 on: May 08, 2023, 01:09:59 PM »
More "counter-narrative" history:

Today, May 8, 2023 is the 81st anniversary of the end of the Battle of the Coral Sea.  The next major engagement after Coral Sea in the Pacific War was, of course, the Battle of Midway.  I've been reading about this battle for decades and studying it more closely for several years and nothing about the Japanese plan makes sense to me.  

First some background.  At the beginning of WWII the USN had seven carriers, CV2 Lexington through CV8 Hornet (CV1 had been Langley but Langley was a converted oiler that was further converted to a seaplane tender in order to free up tonnage for CV7 Wasp).  

Status of the US Carriers at the time of the Battle of Midway:

  • CV2 Lexington was sunk at the Battle of the Coral Sea
  • CV3 Saratoga suffered a torpedo hit in January, 1942 and was sent to Bremerton (Seattle) for repairs.  The repairs were completed before the Battle of Midway but Saratoga was on the way from San Diego (stopped in San Diego to refuel and pick up armaments and aircraft) to Pearl Harbor when the battle was fought and arrived at Pearl Harbor on June 6, as the battle was ending.  
  • CV4 Ranger was not really suitable for carrier v carrier operations and was held in the Atlantic throughout almost all of WWII.  
  • CV5 Yorktown was damaged at Coral Sea and only available for Midway due to the herculean efforts of the repair crews at Pearl Harbor.  
  • CV6 Enterprise had accompanied CV8 Hornet on Doolittle's Raid thus both missed Coral Sea but both participated in Midway. 
  • CV7 Wasp had ferried Spitfires to Malta to assist the British in May, 1942 then was sent to Norfolk in preparation for transfer to the Pacific and was en-route from Norfolk to the Panama Canal at the time of the Battle.  
  • CV8 Hornet, see CV6.  
The USN had three carriers available for the Battle of Midway, the three Yorktown class ships, Yorktown (CV5), Enterprise (CV6), and Hornet (CV8).  The Lexington Class Saratoga (CV3) and the Wasp Class Wasp (CV7) were on their way to Pearl Harbor but neither arrived in time to participate.  

The Japanese Navy *THOUGHT* they had either sunk or severely damaged Yorktown at Coral Sea and they had not detected Saratoga's return nor Wasp's transfer so they believed that the USN only had two carriers available, the two Doolittle's Raid carriers, Enterprise and Hornet.  

The Japanese had six fleet carriers at the beginning of WWII.  All six participated in what they referred to as the "Hawaii Operation" and what we today know as the Attack on Pearl Harbor.  They also had some light and escort carriers that were less capable.  They had lost one light carrier at Coral Sea but their six fleet carriers were all still intact and afloat.  However, Shokaku and Zuikaku (Japan's two newest fleet carriers) did not participate in the Battle of Midway.  This is an unbelievable story:
Shokaku was heavily damaged during the Battle of the Coral Sea and was unavailable due to being in Kure for repairs.  Zuikaku was relatively undamaged but had lost most of its airgroup.  Zuikaku was held out of the Midway force because apparently nobody in Japan thought to say "Hey, why don't we take the undamaged planes from Shokaku and put them on the undamaged carrier Zuikaku?"  

Thus, at the Battle of Midway the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) had four carriers (the six that had attacked Pearl Harbor six months earlier less Shokaku and Zuikaku) and the United States Navy (USN) had three (the three Yorktown Class).  However this overstates the advantage for the IJN because the USN carriers had larger airgroups and the USN also had an unsinkable airstrip on the Island.  Thus, the USN actually had more planes.  

Typically we hear of two possible motivations for the Japanese attack on Midway:
  • To expand their defensive perimeter - partially in response to Doolittle's Raid, and
  • To "force" the USN to send their carriers out to defend and thus battle and destroy the USN's carriers.  
These aren't necessarily complimentary and neither of them make sense.  

Before I address Japan's motivations, let me explain that it was only because of codebreaking that the USN was prepared for the attack on Midway.  The garrison at Midway had been reinforced, repairs to Yorktown were expedited, and all three available carriers were sent to the vicinity ONLY because the USN KNEW the attack was coming.  Otherwise the following would definitely have been true:
  • Yorktown would NOT have been available.  It would either have been under repair at Pearl Harbor or in transit to the West Coast for major repairs.  
  • Midway would NOT have been reinforced.  
  • Saratoga would not have been rushed back to Pearl (arrived June 6), the original orders were for it to await the arrival of an Admiral, THEN depart San Diego.  
Considering that most of the fighting at that point was in the South Pacific, the remaining USN carriers (which would ONLY have been Enterprise and Hornet) would most likely have been in the South Pacific.  

All that being said, if the USN had been unaware of the IJN's plans to attack Midway, the IJN would almost certainly have captured the Atoll.  

Now regarding the alleged Japanese motivations for the attack, first to expand their defensive perimeter:
This make no sense because the IJN simply didn't have the available transport capacity to maintain a garrison on Midway.  The troops and planes stationed on Midway would have needed food, fuel, and ammunition and Midway is 2,500 miles from Tokyo.  Additionally, Midway isn't very close to anything else that the Japanese possessed so it would have been completely unsupported and the supply runs couldn't have been readily combined with resupplying anything else.  

Midway is ~1,300 mi from Hawaii so the USN would have had a field day sinking IJN transports.  They and the garrison would have been attacked at will by USN submarines, aircraft, and surface ships.  The Japanese would have found themselves in an attritional warfare situation that would have been catastrophic to their cause.  

Finally, once the USN got serious about retaking Midway, the IJN couldn't possibly have defended it.  Their closest possession would have been Wake Island which isn't particularly large and is ~1,200 miles away.  That is too far for air support.  

The other traditional motivation given for the Japanese attack was to draw the USN carriers into battle such that they could be destroyed.  One problem with this is that it relies on the USN making a strategically insane decision.  Assuming that the US only had two carriers (Japanese intelligence assessment prior to Midway) and that both of them were in the South Pacific, they couldn't have gotten to Midway until after it fell anyway.  At that point, assuming the two USN carriers charged to Midway, they'd have been facing ridiculous odds of two carriers vs four carriers PLUS the island.  Further, the USN would OBVIOUSLY have known this since the USN garrison at Midway would have KNOWN they were under carrier air attack and relayed that information on to Pearl before they fell.  

In a somewhat analogous situation six months earlier the USN had sent a relief force to Wake Island when it was attacked shortly after Pearl Harbor.  However, when IJN carriers approached Wake the USN recalled the relief force because it simply wasn't worth losing a carrier to defend Wake.  Midway would have been no different.  Beyond that, assuming the two USN carriers HAD been in the South Pacific they probably couldn't have made it to Midway before the IJN carriers ran low on fuel and had to depart anyway.  The Yorktowns had a maximum speed of a little over 30 knots or a little under 40 MPH.  Assuming they were ~2,000 miles away in the South Pacific, they'd have had to travel back to Pearl Harbor then refueled and rearmed, then traveled ~1,300 miles to Midway.  That 3,300 miles of travel would have taken more than three days even assuming that they went full speed the whole way and didn't bother to zig-zag.  Add in time to realize what was happening at Midway before the order was given and time to refuel/rearm at Pearl and you are getting awfully close to the endurance limit of IJN carriers.  

Understand here that the IJN was simply incapable of stationing their carriers off Midway indefinitely.  No Navy in the world was capable of doing that in the early part of WWII.  Late in the war the US developed the capability to station carriers off a hostile shore and maintain them there but in the early part of the war carriers of all navies were capable of raids (Taranto, Pearl Harbor, Marshalls, etc) and of briefly supporting amphibious operations but they were NOT capable of standing off a hostile shore.  Even assuming a successful IJN invasion of Midway, the IJN carriers were going to have to go home sooner rather than later for lack of fuel and munitions.  They couldn't just wait indefinitely for an American counterattack that might or might not develop.  

Finally, everybody on both sides KNEW that the IJN carriers couldn't simply wait at Midway indefinitely.  If the USN had viewed Midway as a critical strategic outpost (they didn't) they would have KNOWN that the IJN carriers would have to leave eventually.  It would have been colossally stupid to send Enterprise and Hornet up there alone while the IJN Carriers were still there.  Instead, Nimitz would have expedited Saratoga (at San Diego) and Wasp (at Norfolk) and waited for the IJN Carriers to depart the area.  Then he could have sent four of his own carriers to retake Midway with his choice of timing.  

longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1798 on: May 08, 2023, 01:43:04 PM »
If Japan had been successful in taking out our carriers they might have been able to sue for peace.  At least that was their thinking,  They greatly miscalculated just how pissed off the USA was.

Japan just didnt think the USA had the resolve for an extended war and it was wrong

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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1799 on: May 08, 2023, 02:43:53 PM »
Yep and Hood also was a big fan of flanking right
As I see it:
The question of attacking L, R, or C is a mere tactical question entirely secondary to the larger strategic question of:
  • Attack, or
  • Declare victory and go home.
I am more interested in the larger, strategic question. My opinion on that issue is that attacking was a strategically sound decision because the Confederate strategic situation was deteriorating relative to the Union strategic situation. 


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1800 on: May 08, 2023, 03:03:46 PM »
If Japan had been successful in taking out our carriers they might have been able to sue for peace.  At least that was their thinking,  They greatly miscalculated just how pissed off the USA was.

Japan just didnt think the USA had the resolve for an extended war and it was wrong
Japan's whole strategic calculus was unbelievably unrealistic.

First, since there was never any plausible way for Japan to militarily crush the US, march to DC, and dictate terms in the White House they *KNEW* that they'd have to negotiate the ultimate end to the war.

If you HAVE to negotiate an end to the war then your enemy has to see you as at least a somewhat trustworthy negotiating partner. That can't happen if you start the war with a surprise attack.

Even within that context though, the attack on Midway doesn't seem to offer any serious hope of actually achieving the goal of sinking the USN Carriers. But for the code breaking, the US Carriers wouldn't have been anywhere close to Midway.

Also note that Nimitz' orders were NOT to defend Midway whatever the cost. Midway was absolutely NOT a hill worth dying on for the USN. Nimitz' orders were to take opportunities to inflict more losses than taken and (basically) to GTFO if the whole thing turned ugly.

At the end if the day, time was the USN's greatest ally, Essex class carriers:
  • CV9 Essex, keel laid April 1941
  • CV16 Lexington, keel laid July 1941
  • CV17 Bunker Hill, keel laid September 1941
  • CV10 Yorktown, keel laid December 1941
  • CV11 Intrepid, keel laid December 1941
  • CV18 Wasp, keel laid March 1942

Those six were already under construction at the time. Three more would be laid down later in 1942 and another nine would be laid down in 1943. They began to be commissioned in December of 1942 and from that point forward the USN added roughly one new full size carrier every other month.


Japan needed to win and win quickly because no matter what happened if they didn't, the USN would eventually get so large and so powerful that the IJN would be hopeless.

longhorn320

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1801 on: May 08, 2023, 03:06:58 PM »
As I see it:
The question of attacking L, R, or C is a mere tactical question entirely secondary to the larger strategic question of:
  • Attack, or
  • Declare victory and go home.
I am more interested in the larger, strategic question. My opinion on that issue is that attacking was a strategically sound decision because the Confederate strategic situation was deteriorating relative to the Union strategic situation.


Number 2 was never an option in Lee's view IMHO

and why not be strategically sound and smart at the same time
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MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1802 on: May 09, 2023, 10:52:33 AM »
Yep and Hood also was a big fan of flanking right
I agree with what Shelby Foote had stated that the Union still had another whole corp in reserve (forget whose) .But regarding if Jackson lived he would no longer be on friendly soil with the locals giving him detailed maps like his earlier campaigns. At Fredricksberg little mentioned is that the very same Gordon Meade had rolled up Jackson's forces on the opposite side of Marye's Heights. Problem was Burnside kept feeding good troops into the grinder at the heights instead of supporting Meade's break through so the thrust came to a halt as Jackson had time to get troops from the other side. So another "what if" as those units could have continued and rolled up the right flank of the defenders on the heights. The UNION definitely had the numbers if properly dispersed which of course they weren't

  Reading/watching all that I have Gettysburg is a true head scratcher of sorts. Two of the most brilliant brains Lincoln & Lee turned ignorant there for a spell. Lee obviously not learning from Fredricksburg and Lincoln FINALLY getting a decisive victory then slamming the guy responsible  - MEADE. To think that an Army exhausted from 3 full days battle in oppresive summer heat should then pursue the enemy the following day in a driving rain storm was pure buffoonery. Just resupplying and tending to the wounded was overwhelming daunting enough. To complicate matters that steaming pile Dan Sickles that almost single handidly cost the Union a victory and maybe the war. He runs off to Washington and told all his political connections(he served in congress and no soldier) and the press that he lost his leg in his brilliant campaign that Meade most certainly messed up . ALL LIES - amazingly no one ever shot that yapping jackel. Poor Gordon Meade performs damn near flawlessly against Robert E Lee no less and he gets panned for his efforts

« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 09:18:07 AM by MrNubbz »
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1803 on: May 09, 2023, 11:47:13 AM »
I agree with what Shelby Foote had stated that the Union still had another whole corp in reserve (forget whose) .But regarding if Jackson lived he would no longer be on friendly soil with the locals giving him detailed maps like his earlier campaigns. At Fredricksberg little mentioned is that the very same Gordon Meade had rolled up Jackson's forces on the opposite side of Marye's Heights. Problem was Burnside kept feeding good troops into the grinder at the heights instead of supporting Meade's break through so the thrust came to a halt as Jackson had time to get troops from the other side. So another "what if" as those units could have continued and rolled up the right flank of the defenders on the heights. The UNION definitely had the numbers if properly dispersed which of course they weren't

  Reading/watching all that I have Gettysburg is a true head scratcher of sorts. Two of the most brilliant brains Lincoln & Lee turned ignorent there for a spell. Lee obviously not learning from Fredricksburg and Lincoln FINALLY getting a decisive victory then slamming the guy responsible  - MEADE. To think that an Army exhausted from 3 full days battle in oppresive summer heat should then pursue the enemy the following day in a driving rain storm was pure buffoonery. Just resupplying and tending to the wounded was overwhelming daunting enough. To complicate matters that steaming pile Dan Sickles that almost single handidly cost the Union a victory and maybe the war. He runs off to Washington and told all his political connections(he served in congress and no soldier) and the press that he lost his leg in his brilliant campaign that Meade most certainly messed up . ALL LIES - amazingly no one ever shot that yapping jackel. Poor Gordon Meade performs damn near flawlessly against Robert E Lee no less and he gets panned for his efforts
I've mentioned it here before but if you want to know a lot more about Lee's retreat and Meade's pursuit, this is a really good book:

https://www.amazon.com/Retreat-Gettysburg-Logistics-Pennsylvania-Campaign/dp/0807872091

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1804 on: May 09, 2023, 02:15:07 PM »
There are some pretty neat computer games replaying various battles, including Gburg, that affords one a somewhat colored view of it all depending.  Some were pretty decent I think and included items like troop exhaustion and logistics.  It mostly helps one learn the geography.

I played a nice Pacific War game by Grisby that if nothing else helped one see where all those islands were.


Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1805 on: May 10, 2023, 07:34:26 AM »

 

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