header pic

Perhaps the BEST B1G Forum anywhere, here at College Football Fan Site, CFB51!!!

The 'Old' CFN/Scout Crowd- Enjoy Civil discussion, game analytics, in depth player and coaching 'takes' and discussing topics surrounding the game. You can even have your own free board, all you have to do is ask!!!

Anyone is welcomed and encouraged to join our FREE site and to take part in our community- a community with you- the user, the fan, -and the person- will be protected from intrusive actions and with a clean place to interact.


Author

Topic: OT - Weird History

 (Read 168518 times)

Gigem

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1526 on: February 07, 2023, 02:03:59 PM »
I don't know if you did this on purpose but it is interesting that you used NYC as your example. NYC itself was very much anti-war territory. Union troops had to be sent there from Gettysburg to put down violent anti-draft riots.
No, explicitly listed NYC because I knew that there was some discontent.  I also seem to remember wealthy people could buy their way out of the war as well.  

Gigem

  • Starter
  • *****
  • Posts: 2144
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1527 on: February 07, 2023, 02:26:31 PM »
Your comment that individual motivations to fight are "more complex" is very true and really quite an understatement. 

In the antebellum South only a fairly small percentage of whites actually owned slaves.  The actual percentage is the subject of some debate but the absolute highest expression of it that I have seen comes from a pro-reparations activist who claims that almost one-third of southern families owned slaves.  Even using that extraordinarily high figure, still more than two-thirds of southern families did NOT own slaves so it stands to reason that at least around two-thirds of Confederate Soldiers had no direct personal benefit from the institution of Slavery. 

In the North the situation was quite convoluted.  A lot of poorer whites, particularly recent immigrants were at best lukewarm to the concept of abolition due to fear of wage competition from freed slaves.  This contributed to anti-war sentiment in the north that got so bad as to require Union Troops to be rushed from their win at the Battle of Gettysburg not South in pursuit of Lee but Northeast to NYC to put down violent anti-draft riots. 

In my own ancestry (AFAIK all of my ancestors were in North America before the Civil War) I have some ancestors who appear to have been drafted and fought rather begrudgingly for the Union possibly fighting to "preserve the Union" and others who joined up of their own free will and expressly for the purpose of freeing the slaves. 

My 2-great grandfather (Mother's, Mother's, Father's Father) was born to Quaker parents and raised a Quaker.  Quakers opposed both slavery and war but my 2-great Grandfather Joshua and his brother Caleb felt that "opposing slavery" as an intellectual pursuit but sitting idly by while hundreds of thousands of your countrymen actually fought to end it was hypocritical so they joined up.  My three-great uncle Caleb was killed in a small and previously little-known Pennsylvania Village called Gettysburg on July 3, 1863.  His brother Joshua served for the entire war from nearly the beginning until the final surrender.  He was wounded twice but survived the war and went on to have a large family with my great-grandfather as one of his sons.  I have a picture of my Grandmother (born 1909) sitting on his knee in about 1919. 

My ancestors Joshua and Caleb were unusual but not altogether unique.  They joined up explicitly to end slavery.  Most Northerners fought either because they didn't have a choice or to "preserve the union".  In fact, Lincoln was not elected on a platform of "ending slavery".  His platform was to stop the spread (not allow it in new territories) and enforce the already existing prohibition on the importation of additional slaves. 

Then there is the Emancipation Proclamation:
The Holy Roman Empire was famously neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.  Similarly, the Emancipation Proclamation functionally did not free a single slave.  Lincoln worded it carefully because there were still some slaves within Union States and, in any case, the President's Constitutional authority to unilaterally free such  persons was dubious at best.  Lincoln avoided those issues by proclaiming the freedom of slaves in areas "then in rebellion".  That made it a military action under his authority as "Commander in Chief" which had a much stronger Constitutional basis than a domestic Presidential edict. 

Additionally, the Emancipation Proclamation was not issued for the purpose of freeing slaves, it was issued for the purpose of keeping France and Great Britain out of the war.  The developing industrial North was an economic competitor to European industry while the agrarian South was an economic supplier of raw materials to and purchaser of industrial goods from European Industry.  The European powers were in a bit of a pickle because their economic interests leaned strongly toward the South but Slavery was extremely unpopular in Europe so their emotional interests were with the North.  The purpose of the Emancipation Proclamation was to make the abolition of slavery an explicit war aim of the North which would effectively make it impossible for either Britain or France to join the war on the (now) explicitly pro-slavery side. 
That's a great piece of family history, thanks for sharing.  I do know that I had some ancestors who unfortunately fought for the South.  I would be very surprised if any of our family ancestors owned slaves, because you had to be somewhat wealthy to own them, and I'm pretty sure we never had any rich kinfolks.  

I doubt any enlisted man ever saw or knew about any Articles of Succession or any of the CSA knowledge.  There is no doubt that slavery suppressed the wages of the average southerner, because competing with free labor is a bitch IMO.  The problem is that nobody in the south and many in the north really accepted the slaves as any kind of equal, so there was always a question on what to do with the freed slaves?  

I often think about the people who signed up to fight to defeat slavery and it makes me very proud to be an American.  Think about it this way.  Slavery was not an American institution, it was a European one.  It was brought here by Europeans hundreds of years before there ever was a United States.  They  may not have allowed it at home, but it was ok to do "off world".  At least 100-150 years before the US existed.  We knew it was bad, it took another ~80 years to get rid of it.  And it was by far the deadliest war in our history.  So although it is a shameful thing in our history we faced it and beat it, even if some of my ancestors fought on the wrong side of the war, the country as a whole prevailed.  IMO just as important as our development as a country as the original Revolutionary War, because we still had to kick that part of Europe out.  

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1528 on: February 08, 2023, 08:27:09 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY:

Boy Scouts of America Founded (1910)
One of the largest youth organizations in the US is the Boy Scouts of America, which promotes community service and character building. The scouts' activities aim at mental, moral, and physical development, stressing outdoor skills and training in citizenship and lifesaving. Scouts receive recognition in the form of merit badges and awards. The basic scout unit is a troop of about 15 boys, under the leadership of an adult scoutmaster.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1529 on: February 08, 2023, 08:29:10 AM »
I think it clear the primary reason for secession was slavery and Lincoln's election.  The war itself was avoidable, at some cost, and men fought for a variety of reasons, slavery not being very prominent for most.


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1530 on: February 08, 2023, 01:00:38 PM »
The White House has been standing for 223 years, but did you know the stone used to build the White House is 100 million years old? 
The walls of the White House are constructed primarily from sandstone. It formed between 100 million years and 136 million years ago during the Lower Cretaceous Period. The sedimentary rock was created through a lengthy geological process. Granite and gneiss rocks broke down over time and became small fragments of quartz sand. Through wind and water, this quartz sand deposited into bodies of water where over millions of years, pressure caused the sand to fuse with other materials including silica, calcium carbonite, or iron oxide, creating sandstone. The Aquia Creek sandstone used to build the White House is known for its light color. It is also known as “freestone,” meaning that the stone could be carved in any direction without it breaking. The stone is very strong and fine grained, making it a good building material.
Outcroppings of Aquia stone exist along the banks of Aquia Creek and the Rappahannock River in Virginia. When construction of the new capital city began, the government purchased a quarry in 1791 at Brent’s Island, now known as Government Island, where enslaved and free laborers cut stone and shipped it up the Potomac River. That quarry and others provided sandstone to build both the White House and the Capitol Building.


Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1531 on: February 09, 2023, 10:08:29 AM »

Cincydawg

  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Global Moderator
  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 71627
  • Oracle of Piedmont Park
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1532 on: February 09, 2023, 05:11:24 PM »


My main man!

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1533 on: February 10, 2023, 09:02:05 PM »
May be an image of 2 people and text that says '"Hear me out- a food truck that sells chicken sandwiches. I'll park it next to Chick Chick-Fil-A and it'll only be open on Sunday's. I'll call it Side Chick" ASTROS'
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17168
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1534 on: February 10, 2023, 09:10:37 PM »
She's looks like she's thinking this is their last date or they're just married
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1535 on: February 10, 2023, 10:34:32 PM »
typical Stros fan
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Default Avatar
  • Posts: 17168
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1536 on: February 11, 2023, 09:01:35 AM »
I think it clear the primary reason for secession was slavery and Lincoln's election.  The war itself was avoidable, at some cost, and men fought for a variety of reasons, slavery not being very prominent for most.
How was it avoidable really? Between cooler,rational heads - YES but that was hardly the case. Congress men were literally attacking each other on the floor. I remember watching the PBS Ken Burns Docu where some reb senator beat some yank senator with a cane breaking it. His constituents mailed him more canes . It was only a matter of time
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1537 on: February 11, 2023, 04:35:53 PM »
May be an image of motorcycle and outdoors
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1538 on: February 12, 2023, 08:10:04 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

US President Bill Clinton Is Acquitted (1999)
In January 1998, President Clinton was questioned in a civil suit charging him with sexual harassment. Before the Grand Jury, he denied having an affair with White House intern Monica Lewinsky, which turned out to be untrue. The US House of Representatives impeached Clinton on December 19, 1998, charging him with perjury and obstruction of justice. In 1999, two impeachment counts were tried in the Senate, which voted to acquit Clinton.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

  • Hall of Fame
  • *****
  • Posts: 37597
  • Liked:
Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1539 on: February 14, 2023, 08:52:38 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

St. Valentine's Day Massacre (1929)
When Jack McGurn, a member of Al Capone's gang, was almost killed by members of rival George "Bugs" Moran's gang, Capone decided to retaliate by luring Bugs and some of his men to a warehouse and killing them. On the day of the massacre, Capone's men thought that the rival crime boss had entered the warehouse and opened fire. They killed seven men but not Bugs—he had grown suspicious and changed his plans.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

 

Support the Site!
Purchase of every item listed here DIRECTLY supports the site.