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Topic: OT - Weird History

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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1274 on: November 11, 2022, 02:33:14 PM »
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1275 on: November 11, 2022, 04:22:46 PM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY:

Battle of Taranto (1940)
The Battle of Taranto during World War II marked the first all-aircraft naval attack in history. The results were definitive, as British planes destroyed much of the Italian fleet anchored in Taranto, in an arm of the Ionian Sea. The battle is seen as a turning point in military history, marking the end of the reign of "big-gun" battleships and leading to the rise of naval air power. Certain aspects of the attack were studied as part of the planning for what other notorious aerial assault?
The answer, of course, is Pear Harbor.  The two attacks (Taranto and PH) are remarkably similar.  What is astounding is that the US commanders at PH failed to learn the lessons of Taranto in the ~13 months between that and the attack on Pear Harbor.  

Kimmel and Short (the Navy and Army commanders at PH) were relieved of command shortly after the attack and, I think court martialed for failing to be better prepared for the attack.  There has been a lot of support for rehabilitating their reputations based on the information learned from broken codes possibly not being properly communicated to them.  I come down on the other side of that debate.  Even without a direct warning from codebreaking they were WELL AWARE of significant tension between the US and Japan and the entire US hierarchy knew that war with Japan was probable and that Japan had started the Russo-Japanese war with a surprise attack.  They should have foreseen the possibility and been better prepared for it.  

That said, in the long run it is probably better that they didn't.  If they had been better prepared the US Aircraft at Pear Harbor would likely have gotten into the air and done significant damage to the Japanese attackers.  It is even possible that the aircraft could have mounted a counter-attack against the Japanese fleet and inflicted damage on or sunk one or more Japanese carriers.  However, it is EXTREMELY unlikely that the US aircraft from Hawaii would have been more than a nusiance for the Japanese carriers.  

The bigger problem, had Kimmel and Short been better prepared, is that they would probably have had the ships ready to sail and thus they would have left port.  If they had evaded the Japanese that would have been great but it is FAR more likely that they'd have still been sunk but instead of being sunk in the very shallow harbor where they could be refloated, repaired, and put back in service in a few years, they'd have been sunk outside the harbor in DEEP water.  The water even just barely outside the harbor is far to deep for recovery efforts so any ships sunk basically outside the mouth of the harbor would have been lost forever.  

Additionally, USS Enterprise was West of Hawaii on it's way back from dropping off airplanes at Wake.  Assuming Kimmel and Short had done a better job of surveillance, they probably would have diverted Enterprise to investigate the Japanese fleet and/or attack.  That would likely have involved USS Enterprise in a lopsided 6 vs 1 engagement with Akagi, Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu, Shokaku, and Zuikaku.  

As it was, the attack caused around 2,000 deaths.  Other than that the only losses not repaired and put back in service were:
  • Arizona - still sitting where it blew up and sank.  
  • Oklahoma - Was refloated and slated to be scrapped.  During tow across the Pacific to the West Coast for scrapping post-war it foundered in a storm.  
  • Utah - Like Arizona, Utah still sits where she sank (not exactly, they moved it a little bit) but Utah wasn't much of a loss anyway.  It was an ancient battleship that had been disarmed and was in use only as a gunnery practice target.  It was set up to be remote controlled and the decks were covered with RR Ties so that the Navy could shoot at it with other ships to practice hitting a BB.  

If the BB's had gotten underway it is fairly likely that there would have been more permanently lost ships.  Additionally, the crews of any lost ships would have been adrift at sea rather than within a short swim of Ford Island.  


medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1276 on: November 11, 2022, 04:25:49 PM »
I agree with this, but I would say it was more than just England. His refusal to cower before the Nazi war machine not only inspired the English (and Scots, Welsh, and Northern Irish) to keep up the fight, but also allowed the Allies time to gear up for winning the war. Better historians than me have speculated about what would have transpired if the UK had folded when other leaders would have recommended that, but my shorthand view is that the Reich would have cemented quite a hold on Europe with terrible consequences for humanity.

And that's my point--he was a great man for the time; he was the man the time required. I worry when people conflate that with an idealized man--one without flaws. He had flaws--deep ones. And the UK was probably correct to depose him in 1944 because by then his flaws had overtaken the utility of his stubborn will and masterful cheerleading. I won't forgive him his faults, but I nonetheless think he deserves his good reputation.
I don't think Churchill was responsible for sending Repulse and PoW out.  He was responsible for sending them to the far East, of course and they had arrived only days before the war began but I am fairly certain that the decision to send them out to challenge the landings was a local decision.  Additionally, Repulse and PoW were originally supposed to have been accompanied (to Singapore) by a carrier (I forget which one) but something happened to it (I forget what, mechanical issue I think) and it didn't end up making the trip.  

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1277 on: November 12, 2022, 08:52:27 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 
San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge Opens to Traffic (1936)
The "Bay Bridge" is a toll bridge linking the California cities of Oakland and San Francisco. About 280,000 vehicles cross it each day. San Francisco residents first recognized the need for a bridge spanning the San Francisco Bay during the Gold Rush when they found themselves cut off from the newly built railroad on the far side of the bay. However, construction of the span was delayed until 1933. Originally, the bridge was to be named after Governor James Rolph.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1278 on: November 13, 2022, 08:55:13 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 

Ronald DeFeo, Jr., Murders Family in Amityville, New York (1974)
After the DeFeo family was discovered murdered in their beds, Ronald DeFeo, Jr.—the family's only surviving member—was placed under police protection. DeFeo initially told investigators that he believed the murders were a mob hit, but he soon confessed and was convicted of murdering his parents and four siblings. A number of controversies surround the case, especially regarding the possible involvement of DeFeo's sister Dawn.
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FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1279 on: November 13, 2022, 08:33:11 PM »
May be an image of text
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1280 on: November 14, 2022, 09:11:24 AM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY: 
Melville's Moby-Dick Published in the US (1851)
Inspired by his whaling experiences on the South Seas, Herman Melville penned Moby-Dick, the now famed tale of a deranged whaling captain's obsessive voyage to find and destroy the great white whale to whom he lost his leg. The novel is at once an exciting sea story, a sociological critique of American prejudices, a repository of information about whaling, and a philosophical inquiry into the nature of good and evil.
"Courage; Generosity; Fairness; Honor; In these are the true awards of manly sport."

MrNubbz

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1281 on: November 14, 2022, 09:45:40 AM »
Based on a true story
Suburbia:Where they tear out the trees & then name streets after them.

SFBadger96

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1282 on: November 14, 2022, 04:42:12 PM »
THIS DAY IN HISTORY:
Melville's Moby-Dick Published in the US (1851)
Inspired by his whaling experiences on the South Seas, Herman Melville penned Moby-Dick, the now famed tale of a deranged whaling captain's obsessive voyage to find and destroy the great white whale to whom he lost his leg. The novel is at once an exciting sea story, a sociological critique of American prejudices, a repository of information about whaling, and a philosophical inquiry into the nature of good and evil.

And would have made a good short story, but is a brutal read as a novel. From the times when authors were paid by the word, and it reads like it.

Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1283 on: November 15, 2022, 07:01:25 PM »
And here is what was actually said courtesy of the late Mike Green; “Battleship at War”, the history of the USS Washington by Ivan Musicant:
“At 2148, Task Force 64 had reached a point 10 miles North of Savo Island; Ching Lee altered course to 150T, Southeast, and the ships steamed directly into Ironbottom Sound. As the vessels swung onto their new heading, transmissions in code and plain language English began coming through the tactical voice frequencies. The code, according to Lt. Raymond Thompson, Lee’s flag lieutenant, “was a new edition that we did not have.” That was a misfortune the admiral might have rued had events turned out different.
The radio traffic was from the Tulagi PT boat squadron, on patrol North of Savo. They had spotted Admiral Kondo’s force in Indispensable Strait and they sent off their report in the new code. Farther South they had blundered upon TF 64 and transmitted its position in the clear ending with; “There go two big ones, but I don’t know whose they are.”
Averting what could have been a most dangerous encounter to all those involved, Ching Lee took matters quickly in hand. Over the tactical voice frequency he sent a personal plain language message to “Cactus” (Guadalcanal Headquarters code name).
Although not exactly “Damn the torpedos, full speed ahead,” Lee’s message nevertheless got the point across.
The “text” was often referred to in the fast battleships for the rest of the war, and everyone had his own version.
Lt. Ray Hunter, OOD, who should know, remembered it this way.
“He went over to the TBS (talk between ships) and pressed the button. “This is Ching Chong China Lee!  Refer your big boss* about Ching Lee!  Call off your boys!”
The PT boats responded with admirable speed.  “Identity established.  We are not after you.”
Everyone on the bridge breathed a little easier, and the task force swept on at a moderate speed of seventeen knots.
*Maj. General Alexander Vandegrift, USMC, Commanding General 1st Marine Division and all U.S. forces on Guadalcanal.”


FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1284 on: November 16, 2022, 07:50:25 AM »
TODAY'S BIRTHDAY: 

Sir Oswald Mosley (1896)
Dubbed the 20th century's worst Briton by the BBC History Magazine, Mosley was a British politician who founded the British Union of Fascists, modeled upon the German and Italian fascist parties of the 1930s. Members adopted Nazi-style uniforms and promoted anti-Semitism. In 1940, Mosley and his second wife, Diana Guinness, a known friend of Adolf Hitler, were interned along with other prominent British fascists.
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Cincydawg

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1285 on: November 16, 2022, 09:06:20 AM »

FearlessF

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1286 on: November 16, 2022, 09:59:18 AM »
not my tab
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medinabuckeye1

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Re: OT - Weird History
« Reply #1287 on: November 16, 2022, 10:48:47 AM »
It isn't really history since it just happened but over Veteran's Day weekend six people were killed and two vintage WWII aircraft were destroyed at an airshow in the Dallas area. 

A P63 (upgraded P39) collided with a B17 and both aircraft were destroyed. 

 

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